Work In Progress: Weapon Mastery (Updated)

cool story, bro.

So barring failed character assassination attempts and sophomoric ad-hominim attacks, how about a legit question that the devs can answer.

#1 : Will ALL players have access to Weapon Mastery, or only player who have access to DLC 10? If the former, it invalidates some of my argument against this. If the latter, please be clear if it's something that you can only access with DLC 10, similar to 2-4 slot trinkets needing "Hand of Fate" DLC.

#2 : Most of the "support" roles are speaking of getting percentage buffs to their main stats for using weapon mastery. Will this buff be enough to offset the cost of pouring an unnecessary 10-15 skill points into stats that are not necessary? For example, a 'troller having to buy 3 points in resto to fill weapon slots when they could place them into a secondary weapon tree to get more vit from a weapon mastery combo?

#3 : Will this percentage buff also be significantly large enough to justify spending time making weapon attacks when they could be healing / power outputting / crowd controlling / tanking?

#4 : One of Spyttle's requirements for weapon mastery was that it needs "look and feel bad-*** to play." I'd like to know if, while playing in the middle of an 8-player instance, if they're looking at their character or at the bad guy they're trying to kill. I'd also like to know why it's more bad-*** to temporarily pull a weapon out to put it back, or to be able to swap weapons on the fly like other MMO's can. I'd also like to know what the requirements of "Feeling bad-***" entail? Shooting a .50 sniper rifle and hitting a target 1/4 mile away is pretty bad-***, but some people think that knitting is pretty bad-*** too.

#5 : Spytle includes this in his statement "Q- Why can’t I just load out two weapons and switch between them? A - Because it is kind of boring." when there is one instance where you can do this. Challenge Mode: Tier 5 "The Hunt" You can swap from fists to arrow guns with a single button push. The mechanic is there. If the stated goal is to make players able to emulate "Deathstroke, Huntress, or Arsenal", then why create a whole new mechanic to do this when one already exists?

#6 : Spytle says this : "we wanted it to layer on top and add to your character, not force you to change it." while Tusno said this "you will gain enhanced Movement Resistance and Weapon Critical Attack Damage." Please tell me how adding these bonuses as a reward for "weapon mastery" is not a passive forcing to change how people play your game? Can you please convince me that a player without weapon mastery will be on an even keel with another player with it?

#7 : The last part, please explain comments made in your initial video where it's insinuated that support roles are not "active enough" in a fight insinuating that DPS is the factor you chose to gauge player "fun". Is the vision of DCUO one of pure DPS only where support roles have to contribute to damage output as well?

I suppose I'm being harsh but seeing as politeness hasn't gotten through I'll try this path. I mean, if you go to your local fast food place and pay for a burger and they give you over-fried cheap chicken patty, then tell you you'll love the chicken more and everyone else is eating it so why don't you, would you politely take it and gnaw on it too, even if it's not what you paid for in the first place?

See, this isn't "hate", this is "wanting to get what I paid for." If this truly is a "work in progress" thread, and the dev truly are interested in changing things based on community commentary, they'll see more than a few comments about this hockey-puck of chicken. I want to be wrong, but after so many years of being given dog and pony shows, you learn to see them for what they are. I want to be wrong, but history says I am not. They've made good changes in the past (loot drops going from rolls to individual, opting out of PvP duel challenges, toggle switches for vulnerability icons and invites and such) which I heartily applauded.

Everything I've seen about this is not a "good" change. And until I can be convinced otherwise, I'm not eating the chicken. that's an awful metaphor, but I'm using it.

I couldn't be bothered to queue to get on the test server last night so can't comment on the feel, but the look is dreadful, awkward and completely out of step with the comicbook style imo.

Absolutely I sincerely hope this doesn't preclude such an addition later in the day, surely this is exactly what the dual weapon slot was intended for. I have zero interest in my brawler suddenly have a ridiculously oversized hammer appear in my hands amid whereas the ability to swap weapons to one of my choice with an animation appropriate to the change would be very welcome.

I think you're taking my poke at your uninformed assumptions a little to much to heart. I'm not a dev, but I think I can answer some of these questions.

None of the innates are truly "unnecessary". Defense, Health, Resto, Dom, Damage. All are beneficial to all roles. One point or so into one of those is not "unnecessary".

That being said, I along with a lot of others would rather see the innates changed to percentage increases rather than base number increases. I think then folks would see how much more they'd gain from these "unnecessary" innates.

Right now, I agree that I'm not seeing the percentage buffs or their durations as being worth it for the main roles which has been brought up in this discussion here and hopefully addressed.

You answered your own question here. The interpretation and requirement of what is "badass" is up to you and each individual player. Some players may feel it is to pull a sword or club out to finish a combo. Others may feel it is to finish a handblaster combo off with a brawling haymaker. Whenever a game introduces a new mechanic, it's up to the players to determine what they feel is badass and not the devs. Isn't that the way it should be?

I somewhat agree with you on this, but the mechanic that you're talking currently only applies to a couple of Legends PvP characters and is one that requires a loadout bar slot in order to do. I think you would find it hard pressed to convince a community of players set on their loadouts to sacrifice a slot in their loadout just to switch weapons. Besides, Armories already provide the specific switch that you are speaking to.

All of this depends on the player, the power, and how good that player is with that power. Spytle laid out a great explanation in another thread explaining the stages of execution that clearly shows how some powers will greatly benefit from Weapon Mastery. The point of Weapon Mastery was to motivate players to gain more skill points so they can perform better. You need to stop looking at this as something that is being forced on players and more as something that will benefit players when they are able to utilize it.

As a player who likes playing all the main roles, I can see the truth in that statement. That being said, I like you enjoy doing more than keeping green bars filled, blue bars filled, or everything in the room hitting me instead of my teammates. What you are addressing isn't something the devs have created for the game. It's what the community has forced on the main roles. Yes, some of the content does push in this direction, but you will find far more players yelling at controllers to just put out power and that's it than you will the devs.

I think you'll find that they respond more to politeness than what you're trying.

Dear Developers,

Please consider adding the controller benefit of providing instant power out, to the group, for the completion of specific weapon mastery combinations. Ideally, weapon mastery would be a nice replacement for instant power powers (psychic empowerment, defibrillator, recharge, temporal extortion). Thank you for taking our opinions into consideration. Oh and Spytle...You did a great job of expressing how disheartening it was that individuals were celebrating the game crash during the webcast yesterday. Assertiveness is always commendable.

Dark Babylon

Having gone through some experimentation on Test Server, I already posted some feedback in the Testing Subforum. However it was mostly aimed at providing DPS results for a specific powerset, and I feel that some of the things I feel that were lacking in support should be reiterated and expanded upon here.

As someone who greatly enjoys playing the support roles, I feel there is potential for WM to enhance the experience and style of play for support roles, BUT as things currently are the rewards are not commensurate with the time and effort of WM comboing.

The issues for WM Support as I see them are two-fold.

1) Getting There.
The road to achieving WM requires a significant investiture of skill dumps. Many previous posts have already covered peoples' dissatisfaction with this topic, so I will only touch on the current lack of attractive options for the Support Player to invest the extra 4-6 SP per tree. It's basically the loss of one to two trees' worth of innates. A discriminating Support Player is going to have to weigh the practicality of reliable and somewhat boring SP cherry-picking versus something new and cool-looking.

But is it worth it?

Combos to generate the WM finishers require several actions worth of build-up. This is a significant break in the current flow
of action/reaction for most support players, particularly healers and trollers. Depending on the powerset, some tanks such as Ice, are able to take the opportunity of time to cycle in a WM combo. But most tanks, particularly those that must turtle-block more often, are left with the same drastic choice as a healer or troller.

"Shall I break my pattern of safety to take a higher risk set of actions?"

This brings us to our next real issue...

2) Is The Juice Worth The Squeeze?

Currently the damage benefits of WM are provided to Support Roles in addition to certain support benefits that are generated by successful completion of the combo clipped with a finisher power.

Trollers and Tanks get a minor Dom boost, while Healers get a power consumption discount on the finisher power activated.

The Dom boost seems to average out along the lines of about +50 to +70 Dom, while the power discount for a healer was barely negligible enough to make a noticeable impression on a healer's very significant power bar.

Is this nice? Sure. It's a little something extra, on top of contributing significantly higher damage output. But the purpose of a Support Player is not to focus on damage output. The question of good judgement becomes raised when players weigh situational actions and reactions for fulfilling their role, versus a free moment where they can possibly throw in a little something extra to help the burn along. Opportunities seem limited when looked at in this practical manner.

So let's approach the idea of "high-risk, high-reward" that the Devs have occasionally mentioned.

What we have here currently is "high-risk, limited reward". So what can be done to generate a commensurate reward with the risk? Here are some suggestions that actually address the areas that a Support Player finds important.

• A significant duration increase window for CC powers activated. This could be accomplished by a flat boost to power duration (likely harder to code), or by a temporary increase in Dom that's actually meaningful, like +500 to +1000 Dom for the gain of an actual +1 to +2 seconds.
• Group Shielding. Most Support Players play Support because they enjoy contributions to a team effort. Taking a moment of high risk to provide temporary protection for their teammates is a worthwhile goal that would be commensurate with what WM demands. 12-16 seconds worth of Resto+Dom based shielding would be a reasonable reward.
• Healing Over Time. Again, in the vein of Group Shielding but even more risky because of the reactive nature of a Healer's job; taking the precious time needed to complete a WM combo is a gamble that might be considered worthwhile if it generated a healing-over-time effect for the group. I'd say that 12-16 seconds duration of a moderate HOT would be useful and weighed as worth taking the chance, particularly if fighting on the move, like corridor combats.
• Extra Health. A proactive method of covering the healing and shielding approach, providing an ablative layer of extra health on top of all party members would also be a worthwhile (and possibly easier coding) goal for WM bonuses. Something along the range of +1 Temporary Health for every point of Resto+Dom would make this an attractive formula for all three support classes and also not 'steal anyone's thunder' in the method of enhancement.

As things stand right now, the question of applicability for Weapon Mastery for Support Roles is tenuous at best. My personal judgement is that the juice is NOT worth the squeeze, and that more attractive options need to be considered. I would really like to hear back from Spytle and the rest of the Dev team on whether or not at this point of Testing and Developement, if it is even feasible for new considerations to be approached.

I remain however, optimistic and await what the next cycles of Testing will show us.

Yeah im with him...these are pointless role buffs and almost invisible. The damage buff is way better especially if your running challanges, duos, and alerts with noobs. Either make some critical chance or magnitude to heals and power out, or the risk isnt worth the reward. If your a skilled healer u wont even be running your power bar down ever, timing is key, HEALING IS NOT JUST SPAMMING YOUR POWERS WHEN THEY ARE UP. No matter what your CR is....if your doing this you are a trash healer and make it harder on the raid you are running. If home turf neck mods which is a DLC can give you % buffs then why in the hell cant this DLC? it should of already been a done deal and the conversation is over.

@ CCBatson. +1 Perfectly said.

I'm hanging onto the hope that the Devs just threw something out there just to get WM on PC Test. Give players a chance to test out the Weapon Mastery combos and Finisher Windows.

Gawd I wish there was more communication. I feel so in the dark.

Heaven forbid anyone would have to figure out a new play style. I find it sad that so many people want things added to the game that fits seamlessly into how they currently play, but never give thought to the concept that perhaps they could develop a new play style that works well with new changes. Every addition or change to the game can't take every players play style into consideration, sometimes it takes creativity to come up with the best method of playing given whatever change occurs. Personally, I think all the changes are great for shaking things up and forcing players out of their ruts and comfort zones and getting people to create new ways of playing the game.

High risk, high reward. RIGHT?

How is risking 2-3 counterable combos, on top of timing the clip, to get 50-70 dom, OK?
I dont even think a Vit increase is ok, should be a crit damage incr or a burst of power out to you and your group members.

Is there anyone that is ok with this? While every other role gets a better benefit from WM.

I saw a Kaiser Video.. Using a Rage DPS and Weapon Mastery, he got a 43,000 Precision crit on a T6 Alert Boss...!!!

Are the Support Role buffs on par with that?

What happened to Weapon Mastery being a bridge for "Great" power classes to be on par with the "Amazing" Power classes? It wasn't Suppose to make "Amazing" power classes "Demigods".

And then people ask why tanks are the less populated role...

Their affinites are a ridiculous amount (nearly 13 dominance in elemental android IIRC) and now they get this ridiculous buff for a role who is 100% of the time in danger surrounding with enemies? how the devs find this balanced? im gonna repeat myself but we have to deal with lose our entire buff from debuffs and now this ridiculous bonus? i dont really enjoy how DPS centric this game has becoming really.

I dont know too much about controllers, i only have one at level 20 in the past but no vita boost or a small pot? just dom...

Seriously looks like it was friday and they put a quick buff to support roles to go home...

Currently sorcery is beast with WM.

Probably the fastest time for solo dps yet. (T6 alert)

What are the current buffs for WM for every role?

I dont have the test server and saw those buff in a video so maybe it changes... last time was:

Healers: power cost reduction to the following move after WM.

Tanks and controllers: dominance boost for 6 seconds, thats all...

Sorry, cant tell you the specific amounts of power cost reduction and dominance buffs...

O M G 43k?
BUT ITS OK THO, CONTROLLERS GET 6 SECONDS OF 60 DOM, ITS WELL BALANCED.

Please see the OP for an update on what we have decided to do for roles after seeing it in action on PC Test. Thanks for you patience while we worked through our options and took in your feedback.

The reduced power cost might help with the issue of controllers only being batteries somewhat. Perhaps to also help out on the controller issue, on the power sets that give instant power back, rather than have the might and precision boost be static, you can have it give a certain percentile increase to those stats, which may encourage a dps to take that over say, menace or intimidation. Granted that would effect overall balance. Maybe implement that into the new power mechanics you are working on for each power set.

Overall I do like this direction a bit more than where you originally intended to go with it.

Hey spytle, I saw the updated post, and wanted to suggest this.

What about tying the Weapon mastery bonus to the weapon role itself rather than the players role? For instance, if I'm in controller stance, and I put on a DPS weapon, perhaps I'd get the weapon bonus a DPS would normally get. This would alleviate the balance issues with regards to PvP and still allow viable stats in PvE. Dominance is useless in PvP since tanks can wipe controller shields (and debuff trolls up to roughly 76% of their base vit so they're 24% of their normal undebuffed vit). Tanks are typically second DPS's in PvP unless playing node matches, and their Dom stat goes out the window as well seeing that they don't really need it.

By allowing the weapon mastery buff based on the weapon, you'll be allowing for greater variety in builds all across the board while solving the problems a lot of people will have in regards to balances to PvP.

And yes, most controllers use the DPS weapon since the vitalization stat difference is miniscule compared to the precision and might gained.

Thanks for your time




edit: Just wanted to add that the movement mode debuffs trump said gains as well.

1-1-1-5 Here we come.

In my opinion regarding healing, a power reduction really only benefits Electric healers and healers who are undergeared for content. A majority of the healers out there already use the least or at least rank in the bottom 3 spots for Power In. Then again throwing some really hard content may help to see its usefulness.

I do appreciate you guys taking the time to look it over and I hope the other roles find it as beneficial as the dps.

Edit: I'd just like do add personally, I'd like to see an option to choose from...power reduction, increased damage, etc. Also, since there are many melee combos, it would be nice to see maybe a shield that can be activated upon performing a combo for longer melee time.