W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

When Spytle says that certain powers can multiply their damage output by 2.5 times...I'm assuming he is referring to that single power. At least, that's what the language means to me.

For example if Fan takes 2.5 seconds to cast without JC and does 1000 damage...
If you can JC Fan so it takes 1 second to cast and still does 1000 damage...

In theory you could jump cancel Fan over and over (assuming no cool down issues). If you don't JC, over the course of 5 seconds you could execute it twice and do 2000 damage. If you JC you could execute it 5 times and do 5000 damage. Thus, you are doing 2.5 times the damage.

Exactly. It's a language thing. Either you are able to read it and understand it properly, or you can't. He's being clear... It's just a nuanced sentence for a non-native english speaker or for a younger reader with less developed language skills.

Now this makes more sense, thanks for the clarification, i hope this puts an end to th
os hl is 2.5 times better nonsense.@

Yep... But is totaly fail compare only the power without a rotation. Why? Simple... The powers has cooldown and uses power.

Ok, this is a completely different thing. With this data we can have a better aproach and give better feedback. I also want things balanced, but the feeling I'm having here is that there is a which-hunt agaisnt JC powers. So you may also want to test or calculate numbers the other way around, how much worse is a JC power compared to others without JC and with the extra weapon damage.

Hard Light stats:
Weapon: Rifle 224.1 DPS or 2241 Precision
Precision: 1500
Might: 2900 + 261(Escalating Might 81x3) = 3161

Hard Light Combos - Minimum Damage:
Combo 1: Grenade(500) > Snap Trap(500+30+30) combo Fan(800) = 1860 MinimumDamage.
Combo 2: Grenade(500) > Fan(500) > Grenade(500) > Snap Trap(500+30+30) combo Fan(800) = 500 + 500 + 500 + 560 + 800 = 2860 Minimum Damage.
Combo 3: Grenade(500) > Ram(180x3) > Whip Thrash(280x4) > Snap Trap(500+30+30) combo Fan(800) = 500 + 540 + 1120 + 560 + 800 = 3520
Combo 4: Grenade(500) > Ram(180x3) > Whip Thrash(280x4) > Fan(500) > Grenade(500) > Snap Trap(500+30+30) combo Fan(800) - 500 + 540 + 1120 + 500 + 500 + 560 + 800 = 4520

Hard Light Combos - Maximum Damage:
Combo 1: Grenade(1500) > Snap Trap(1300+120+120) combo Fan(2400) = 1500 + 1540 + 2400 = 5440 Maximum Damage.
Combo 2: Grenade(1500) > Fan(1300) > Grenade(1500) > Snap Trap(1300+120+120) combo Fan(2400) = 1500 + 1300 + 1500 + 1540 + 2400 = 8240 Maximum Damage.
Combo 3: Grenade(1500) > Ram(550x3) > Whip Thrash(850x4) > Snap Trap(1300+120+120) combo Fan(2400) = 1500 + 1650+ 3400 + 1540 + 2400 = 10490 Maximum Damage
Combo 4: Grenade(1500) > Ram(550x3) > Whip Thrash(850x4) > Fan(1300) > Grenade(1500) > Snap Trap(1300+120+120) combo Fan(2400) = 1500 + 1650+ 3400 + 1300 + 1500 + 1540 + 2400 = 13290 Maximum Damage

Hard Light - Minimum and Maximum Damage Per Second - Without Jump Clip

Combo 1: 1860 Minimum Damage / 2 seconds = 930 Minimum DPS
Combo 1: 5440 Maximum Damage / 2 seconds = 2720 Maximum DPS
Power: 500 Power / 2 seconds = 250 Power Per Second.

Combo 2: 2860 Minimum Damage / 2.5 seconds = 1144 Minimum DPS.
Combo 2: 8240 Maximum Damage / 2.5 seconds = 3296 Maximum DPS.
Power: 1000 Power / 2.5 seconds = 400 Power Per Second.

Combo 3: 3520 Minimum Damage / 2.9 seconds = 1213 Minimum DPS.
Combo 3: 10490 Maximum Damage / 2.9 seconds = 3617 Maximum DPS.

Power: 900 Power / 2.9 seconds = 310 Power Per Second.

Combo 4: 4520 Minimum Damage / 3.6 seconds = 1255 Minimum DPS.
Combo 4: 13290 Maximum Damage / 3.6 seconds = 3691 maximum DPS.
Power: 1400 Power / 3.6 seconds = 388 Power Per Second.

Hard Light - Minimum and Maximum Damage Per Second - Jump Clip 0.5 seconds

Combo 1: 1860 Minimum Damage / 1.5 seconds = 1240 Minimum DPS / 33% Damage Increase.
Combo 1: 5440 Maximum Damage / 1.5 seconds = 3626 Maximum DPS / 33% Damage Increase.
Power: 500 Power / 1.5 seconds = 333 Power Per Second / 33% Power Increase.

Combo 2: 2860 Minimum Damage / 1.7 seconds = 1682 Minimum DPS / 44% Damage Increase.
Combo 2: 8240 Maximum Damage / 1.7 seconds = 4847 Maximum DPS / 47% Damage Increase.
Power: 1000 Power / 1.7 seconds = 588 Power Per Second / 47% Power Increase.

Combo 3: 3520 Minimum Damage / 2.4 seconds = 1466 Minimum DPS / 20% Damage Increase.
Combo 3: 10490 Maximum Damage / 2.4 seconds = 4370 Maximum DPS / 20% Damage Increase.
Power: 900 Power / 2.4 seconds = 375 Power Per Second / 20% Power Increase.

Combo 4: 4520 Minimum Damage / 2.6 seconds = 1738 Minimum DPS / 38% Damage Increase.
Combo 4: 13290 Maximum Damage / 2.6 seconds = 5111 maximum DPS / 38% Damage Increase.
Power: 1400 Power / 2.6 seconds = 538 Power Per Second / 38% Power Increase.

Hard Light - Minimum and Maximum Damage Per Second - Jump Clip 0.1 seconds

Combo 1: 1860 Minimum Damage / 1.1 seconds = 1690 Minimum DPS / 81% Damage Increase.
Combo 1: 5440 Maximum Damage / 1.1 seconds = 4945 Maximum DPS / 81% Damage Increase.
Power: 500 Power / 1.1 seconds = 454 Power Per Second / 81% Power Increase.

Combo 2: 2860 Minimum Damage / 1.3 seconds = 2200 Minimum DPS / 92% Damage Increase.
Combo 2: 8240 Maximum Damage / 1.3 seconds = 6338 Maximum DPS / 92% Damage Increase.
Power: 1000 Power / 1.3 seconds = 769 Power Per Second / 92% Power Increase.

Combo 3: 3520 Minimum Damage / 2 seconds = 1760 Minimum DPS / 45% Damage Increase.
Combo 3: 10490 Maximum Damage / 2 seconds = 5245 Maximum DPS / 45% Damage Increase.
Power: 900 Power / 2 seconds = 450 Power Per Second / 45% Power Increase.

Combo 4: 4520 Minimum Damage / 2.2 seconds = 2054 Minimum DPS / 63% Damage Increase.
Combo 4: 13290 Maximum Damage / 2.2 seconds = 6040 maximum DPS / 63% Damage Increase.
Power: 1400 Power / 2.2 seconds = 636 Power Per Second / 64% Power Increase.


PS: I will try to make the same for others powerset to compare the damage of some combos.

The numbers here aren't 100% correct but are close, and help to clear our questions about the Jump Clip.

PS: I pretty sure know, Rage has like 6000 Maximum DPS without use any Jump Clip power and using 50% less power than HL.
So, if you think the HL dmg is OP with jump clip, you are wrong.
HL gameplay is a lot of harder, need a lot of more dexterity and power to execute the rotations to have a final result equal to Rage.

Thanks for read.

It's not a witch hunt against JC powers. It's a witch hunt against JC itself. You aren't supposed to JC powers and get full damage. At least that's my understanding of the mechanic. It is supposed to be a mechanic that allows you to interrupt normally long cast times, negate the rest of the damage but allow yourself to do something else (run away, block, kiss your **** goodbye). Just because HL users (and I was one of them) spent a lot of time using a broken mechanic doesn't make it right.

I fully expect them to adjust the damage on the HL powers to compensate for them being slowed down. Maybe Spytle isn't clear enough on that?

I dont think he is refering to HL combos, but he is referring to certain powers that do 2.5 more damage than other powers.

How is there a extra move? Ram is ur super power the benefit powers is snap-trap and fan (combo) and weapon finisher is grenade (repeat) without clipping anything and just using jump cancel it so happens that the speed that hardlight can do it at is were its damage comes from.

And Kaiser has a point plasma retch and fear gas are dots vs fan which is a channel burst move after the aoe tick we have no chocie but to jump cancel, so are you talking about a certain power or powers that rely on jc? Becuase no hardlight player is ganna let fan animation on standing in the middle of battle A/C constructing.

You guys act as if we combo with other weapons, with these combo powers, rage, hl and cel dont need weapons other then rifles they come with combos we cant ignore vs the ones we can.

If the delay does happen and it turns out to be bad, celestial will plague away... just saying.

Exactly. Several posters are not following the language of the discussion and not understanding what they're reading. They're making comments be about HL directly when no one has made any statements about HL. The comments are referring to the JC exploited mechanic. Not to any specific Powerset. This affects all powersets.

HL Dmg is OP with Jump Clip. Comparing it to Rage doesn't mean it is not OP. It means they both are and need to be looked at.

Is it completely wrong for me to gratuitously try to derail this and ask you for some kind of update in the Weapon Mastery Thread?

This seems to be getting all of your attention and the discussions look pretty fruitless. The only thing you are getting in here is an argument that is un-winnable. Any change will be less than ideal for some. I think we can see that.

There are players over there (WM thread) really trying to provide feedback.

So, I beg you, please lend some attention those that are trying to help in other thread. There are now 2 pages there of 'hello?' type posts.

THIS ISN'T GOING TO JUST EFFECT HL. Animation times are being adjusted for everyone (see other thread). They will be able to BALANCE all the powers with each other EASILY (tm).

TheMarvel, please go back to your other thread, only PEW PEWers allowed to speak.

Nice, good point but everyone wants to "witch hunt" and unlike posts. And also it isnt like the combo powers are going to use WM combos, they have to ignore 1 or the other VS a nature that will just DOTS UP, WM combo (repeat). Were did the balance go then?

It's not fail, because they are adjusting animation times for ALL powersets. This will allow them to balance things. At that point, if you have some powers that can JC stuff and get full damage...well it's blatantly broken.

Players need to stop worrying about how much damage they will do compared to other powersets. The entire reason for reworking the JC and animation times is to make it so they CAN balance things.

Exactly. Again.

Posting theoretical damage numbers is pointless. The powersets will be tweaked and adjusted after they're all on an even footing. But those balance passes can't happen until broken mechanics are removed. They don't know what to fix or how much to fix it by until that happens.

Not if balance means fire, nature and all the dot powers just throw dots and WM combo away using both vs combo powers that have no dots and choose to either use wm combos or their actual combo powers using 1 or the other

Im just worry about OVER nerfing.

From teh animations thread quote from Spytle:
"This is the first step in moving toward better balance in the game long term. Once animations are normalized, we can then - with your insights - adjust the other aspects of powers like damage and support output to make sure none are too powerful or too weak."

So can we please stop worrying about damage numbers compared to other powersets? Can we please stop thinking this is going to only effect one or two powersets? *talking intentions by the devs here, execution is another matter*

Disagree... They can balance the game without fix/remove the Jump Clip system.
Rage is here to prove it.

Rage is able to beat HL and Gadgets without use any Jump Clip and with 50% of the Power Cost... So, why they can't do it with the others?
But how you beat a Rage with your HL and Gadget? Simple... Jump Clip NEED dexterity and experience, and I have it.
I'm compensating the advantage with playerskill.

Now... Tell me. How can I compensate a power advantage with playerskill if the game will be almost equal? Fact: They will always make a new power stronger than others to sell tokens... If you think the game will be balanced any day. Sorry, they will not do it. After 28 months waiting for a balanced game and always new revamps/powers being stronger than others and everyone switching... Yes, they will always make a new power/revamp stronger to sell tokens.

Do you need help to make the game balanced without take off the Jump Clip? I'm able to do it. I have over one year playing and studying the powers with and without jump clip, like Mental vs Gadget... I know what can be changed on Mental to be able to keep up with Gadget.

I understand people are worried about over nerfing. The point of these threads are COMBAT BALANCE. I would assume that we will see Snap Trap get better Dot's or that Fan will be compensated to be worth it. They have already said (in the above quote in my previous post) that they will adjust damage output once the animation timings are brought in line.