The Passive Thoughts would remain controllable, so Lasso of Truth would still work on those. Just not on The Angry thoughts.
I go to bed and wake up to find 2 extra pages of people arguing about if lasso is cheese and if artifacts are working as intended but everyone seems to have ignored a very elegant solution to what may or may not be a problem: If the damage is tuned properly, you could leave lasso alone and still need a second tank to gather the adds, plus if it would require lasso to be leveled higher than 80 to help with the mechanic since damage to the group of adds would lessen pressure on the healer. You could still just run a second tank with just a pull as well. You could even increase the proximity damage as more adds are close together so that you couldn't just hold the adds while you burn thru the phase.
“Give adds lasso immunity” (the original suggestion) does feel like a knock against any actual tank who might use it. It sounds like the real issue is that apparently Lasso artifact bypasses the dom cap (I wasn’t aware of that, tbh). Which DOES seem like poor design if not a full exploit. At least, it’s hard for me to imagine the design philosophy for that art was “let everyone have a strong group pull regardless of role.” It feels like a proper fix would be to make the artifact follow the dom cap, since I have to imagine this issue is likely to crop up repeatedly until that happens (and, again, making adds immune to an otherwise reasonable tank power choice makes it all the harder to tank). The addition of a dot to the adds feels like a decent compromise for the specific scenario, though. Again, “we added a bunch of adds that do no damage to anyone they’re near” feels like a design oversight.
On the topic of Lasso and what to do: The real issue is that it's ignoring a Dom check. It's not restricted to being a tank artifact so anyone is free to use it. However, I see no good reason as to why it shouldn't be subject to a Dom check (while in group content) to actually work. I guess you could argue "it's the Lasso that's pulling, not me" but that's a pretty big stretch. As it stands, Lasso is an outlier when used with the artifact. That should be corrected. Now maybe my (getting) old brain isn't remembering correctly but I believe a green name at one point stated that elite (and elite plus) were geared towards a more maximized style character. One with a higher than average SP, thought out builds, and more importantly, for this discussion, high levelled artifacts. Benefiting from having levelled artifacts and a thought out build should not be punished. But an outlier should be fixed.
Exactly... It's an issue with the artifact and the fix needs to be to the artifact not some silly patch job to content that just locks players out of artifacts they've earned. If you put a dom check on the artifact then the only ones that are probably going to be using it are a controller and a tank and that's totally appropriate use that has to be accepted as intended because that's what the artifact is supposed to do.
Art swap is not an exploit. Devs didn’t build them with the current goal they are being used for, but as mentioned, they are something that you carry in your inventory and you have access to at any moment. The effects is some last for a few seconds where people can take advantage whether they have it equipped or not. Same thing for lasso, is following the intended design. Devs didn’t foresee being used in case like this. But is a non-role arti than can be equipped by anyone. However, both things are really cheese. When devs were reworking BOP (I think it was that one) any role could use it to generate sc. Testers caught this on time and so did the devs and then it was stated that only controllers could use this artifact. IMO, they should do the same with lasso (only tanks and trolls since they are in charge of cc). The art swapping topic has been around for a long time. Devs should really take a stance on which cheese they will keep allowing to happen and which one they won’t. My 2 cents.
Lol. I just can't understand the difference here and what is cheese. The mechanic: adds spawn, they go to the boss, and if they reach the boss bad stuff happens. So... Aside from this mechanic, it is a 1 tank scenario. What is really the difference between a dps switching to tank to use tank pulls....or even Lasso with the artifact... Versus anyone else in the group equipped with the Lasso and artifact doing the job? Is the group avoiding the mechanic? NO Is everyone in the group using something to avoid the mechanic? NO Is there any difficulty difference with someone other than a tank role doing this? NO So where's the cheese? Lmao. The only thing here is someone thinking only a tank should do this job. It's stuff like this that leads to less roles in the freaking game. We already have a shortage of viable tanks. So let's gatekeep an instance by the tank role. You all want to change an artifact over this? For real? What about all the non tanks and non controllers who leveled this artifact? Yall gonna refund them? Are we gonna change the ICONIC power so only 2 out of 4 roles can equip it???? None of this makes sense. This is literally a pre conceived notion of how the group must be made up, and how it should be run. It's not bypassing the mechanic or making it easier, it's just a demand for a 2 tank group to do the raid. Yes there is a dom check on the iconic ability. But the artifact is made so anyone can do what the artifact says it makes the lasso do. Changing that makes the artifact pointless, since any tank or controller can have the dominance to begin with. All I see here is a tank player mad that other people have access to this content...and he isn't required.
Really, I entirely agree with this. I suggested putting the dom cap on the artifact simply to alleviate ObsidianChills cause for concern, somewhat as a compromise. But, I do think his cause for concern has no basis in the first place and I agree with you that nothing should be altered, the artifact should be left alone and the adds in this particular instance should also be left alone, so that they behave like the adds they are, normal adds. That instance has enough going on to make it challenging without rendering the lasso useless. We can't start changing the rules of content simply because one individual takes exception to an artifact or decides only their strategy is the correct strategy then starts calling everything else "cheese", they had no issue with the artifact prior, it only became an issue when they decided they no longer liked the impact that artifact had, even though its working entirely as intended and how it was sold to the players. "Cheese" is a highly subjective term and what one player finds to be cheese, another player finds to be fine. this goes all the way back to include things like pillar tanking in Paradox, most people had no problem with screwing the bosses over behind the pillar, but some certainly did consider it "cheesy", but it didn't make that wrong either. We have to be very careful about modifying content on the desires of one individual who considers something to be cheesy or the list of game fixes will start to become very astronomical and highly controversial and subjective. You made a good post.
It is a justified suggestion in the context of Elite+ and this fight in particular in my opinion. It throws off the balance too much if one group has an additional DPS in that fight, as - as far as we could tell - that add phase is the main challenge of the fight.
Is this a jab at me? It's not about me personally tanking with or without it....it's about making another fire power worthless, but hey, you wanna throw out negatively and come at me, that just shows your mentality.
I don't agree, its either a suggestion that applies across all content or none at all. What you're trying to do here is increase the difficulty of Elite+ through the restriction of an artifact which is just not cool on any level. All for the sake of what, forcing the group to take a second tank just for one portion of one fight, respectfully that seems bit over top and stupid, regardless. There have been better suggestions made to make that more difficult rather than trying to screw over the artifact. Just put a timer on the adds so that if they're not killed or reach Hecate they explode, just make it more difficult or near impossible for a DPS to do the pulling and it'll push it into a tank doing it, but at least then the tank still has the choice to use their artifact, if that's their choice, without having it disabled because of an overzealous accusation of cheese
Is this a jab at… anyone here? It's not about me personally tanking....it's about making another role worthless, but hey, you wanna throw out negatively and come at me, that just shows your mentality.
LOL Whaaaaat???!!!??? What roles are being made worthless???? If anything, I know controllers who love this boss fight because they finally feel needed again. Back in the day, this was the perfect scenario for a Controller. It's been so long since they've been needed, it's like the community doesn't even remember what a "controller" is. They just want power and now swapped artifact buffs. Does anyone remember the manhunters and how we used a controller, not a second tank?!? I can't even anymore, it's gotten so bizarre with some players on here. And btw, no one here is saying you can't use 2 tanks, we're just saying that shouldn't be THE ONLY group format, especially if it's pushed on us by one test server guy.
I could say the same about what powers are being made useless when you can perfectly still use it. But any way, I find funny your position on this specific artifact use when you have a very strong opinion on a different subject about artifacts. I don’t mind if it is left as it is but some of y’all are very hypocritical when a “strategy” you use is mentioned here for change.
LOL Whaaaaat???!!!??? Your memory of what the game was is subjectively the worst. Where "back in the day" was any controller pulling multiple add groups? Munitions didn't even come out till 2015, which was the first controller with an aoe pull, unless you had somehow perfect positioning with Light's Fan. Your manhunter example from Assault and Battery you didn't pull the manhunter LOL you had to keep it hard stunned or it would continue to walk towards the front of the room with the tank. No where ever in the history of DCUO was there ever a time a controllers role was to pull multiple adds from different spawn locations away from the boss continually. That is why controllers have single target pulls, because they could separate a single add from the group because the tank had aoe pulls. An actual real example if you could recall would be Phoenix Cannon and the Supressor. The controllers job there was to separate ONE npc and keep it from the group. You were correct about one thing it is so bizarre with some players on here
How would you know? have you even stepped foot into Cursed Themyscira Elite Plus? or have you ever even tested a single elite plus raid? If you are so concerned that the change has no basis and your ridiculous notion that the instance has enough going on to make it challenging, again HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? Cursed Themyscira is the easiest elite raid we've had released in years. In the first week it was being done without a healer and tanks that were 100+ cr levels lower, and less than two weeks later it is already being 4manned. The entire point of elite plus is to change the rules of its content. Or would you like more SWE Elite Plus where the entire community complains that its too hard and they can't run it? Then Terrarium Elite Plus comes along and groups are completing it in 16 minutes. When there is any "strategy" that involves an "item" that trivializes content it should be 100% addressed specifically in Elite Plus content. Changing Lasso of Truth to account for the DOM cap changes the entire function of the artifact and then you have players coming out to cry they paid to level it and now its changed and want another free artifact upgrade. Making the change only for Elite Plus content allows the artifact to remain untouched because Event-Normal-Elite content are irrelevant and are not allowed to be too challenging for the sake to accessibility to the broader community. Cheese is not a subjective term. If 1 item can give a clear advantage over another group, that they could achieve the same result but leveling said item that is cheese. You can have the dps and controllers swap 10+ arts, does that mean they automatically have an superior advantage over another group? no it doesn't, its just extra stats and still completely up to individual player skill to use them. Just because you have X more might or X more health means nothing. Your pillar tanking example is worthless in this comparison. Pillar tanking required specific group positioning, guess what it was our Paradox group that created that strategy in the first place. Any group couldn't just walk into Paradox Wave and sit by a pillar and have it work, all 8 players needed to be in sync or it failed. There was no magic item that the tank could level to make Pillar Tanking work or easier. In the context of Elite Plus we don't have to be careful because that is the ENTIRE PURPOSE of the content. Why make changes to how the Thoughts function in Elite Plus if groups are just going to use something to completely bypass the changes?
Lol, you want to immediately make it about stuns versus pulls huh? When the point was all about CONTROLLING the adds! Yeah, we didn't have this artifact back then, but if we did, the controller's would have been using it and you'd be crying about it apparently.
Its not an advantage over any group. It's using an artifact as intended. Again, it's designed that way. But no artifact is designed not to have stacks drop, or not to have their timer bypassed. There's a huge difference here. But oh yeah, good job testing bro, you are our hero. Lol. No one asked you to do it, and then hold it over our head like it's some huge achievement. If I had a PC, I'd do it, so the same people don't keep manipulating our content. We need a PS test server. Btw, I don't know why you keep saying these try hard swappers could be horrible players. That doesn't change the fact it's using artifacts in a way theyre not intended. We all know they know what they're doing, and they're doing it to the max. Stop with this hyperbole that it could be bad players swapping lol.
While trying to avoid the heightened sense of emotion in your post, we're all allowed to provide feedback without your approval. Chastising me about what I do or do not play, do or do not test is not constructive and honestly not really relevant. You aren't able to just dismiss my feedback out of hand like that as a player, it doesn't work like that I'm afraid, if only though right. We need to discuss this based on the merits of the topic. I've offered an alternative solution that would work, but one that doesn't go as far as disabling the intended purpose of an artifact, which is where you prematurely went with your initial feedback - the artifact is working as intended in every aspect, whether you like it or not. Honestly I don't think we should do anything with the artifact or the instance, but if we must, a mechanic on the ghosts that causes some damage so that a DPS must think about what they're doing if they choose to pull would perfectly suffice. In every piece of content, there are multiple solutions to a puzzle or overcoming a mechanic, not just your way and the lasso provides an alternative solution outside of what you clearly feel or felt should only have the one solution - a second tank. You need to understand that not everyone thinks like you, nor do they have too and because everyone thinks differently they'll approach content differently and in different ways, ways that shouldn't be restricted or prohibited solely on the basis that "ObsidianChill doesn't approve". Cheese is a subjective term because cheese is actually really what people might consider "light cheating" or doing something outside of the norm or in this case "Obsidians expectations" to beat a piece of content and everyone is going to have a different view on what might be acceptable with this or what might really be something that's broken. In this particular scenario though the lasso artifact is working perfectly as intended so there's really no argument you can make that justifies suffocating the use of that artifact through a change to the instance, because there's no sane or rational argument you can run to suggest that the artifact is "broken", so it might be cheese to ObsidianChill, but it's highly likely others do not share your view as clearly evident in this thread, multiple people are opposing your view here. Just briefly before I go your comment here "Cheese is not a subjective term. If 1 item can give a clear advantage over another group, that they could achieve the same result but leveling said item that is cheese. You can have the dps and controllers swap 10+ arts, does that mean they automatically have an superior advantage over another group? no it doesn't" This just isn't true either, because you seem to have a problem with the lasso artifact, but aren't wanting to acknowledge the impacts of other things that could just as easily make the instance easier, stacking gadgets prec dps players, artifact swapping, you seem to have targeted one particular thing while ignoring the other things that are just as bad if not worse when it comes to impacting the overall difficulty of content, not just on this one boss, but throughout the entire raid.
