It's too easy to get to EG.

This thread was inspired by another where the discussion was about CR skips in EG being terrible, but that's not the whole issue. A bigger problem, from my perspective, is how easy it is to get to EG and how you can get there while being totally ineffective.

Just out of boredom, I took one of my bank/seasonal toons from CR 120 to 350. It took me about 3 days, and that was only playing it a couple of hours a night. With the way the tiers work, it's basically queue for a couple of raids to get source, go to Tempus Fuginat and buy gear that's about 80 CR higher than what you're wearing, skip to next tier and repeat until you hit tier 6. Then run out to Gotham Wastelands and spam the bosses there until you're 350.

As I said, it took a few hours, but netted me a character that had no worthwhile arts, minimal SP, and negligible body and head augs, but one I can queue into EG content with. That shouldn't happen.

For me, this toon is just another way to farm picks for my third and fourth alt to finish their OP back, but it shows how easy it is to get to EG with a character that's essentially useless, and if I wanted, I could inflict this terrible toon on any unsuspecting group out there. Now I know how to play and how to follow mechanics, so even if I were to take this toon into an EG raid, I wouldn't be a group killer, just not much of an asset, but if you were to put a newb into the same toon, it would be a mess.

So my question is what should be done about it? Should there be requirements other than CR for EG? Should progression at the lower tiers be slowed back down at least for your first time through the content? Should there be a revamp of progression so it all moves together more smoothly (like you can't get to EG without ending up with a reasonable number of SP and your body augs and at least a few arts at a usable level)?

What are your thoughts guys?

I think it's working as intended and as it's always worked. There's also a strong argument to be made that the devs want as many people playing in the same areas as possible, and between event versions of the newest content and them easing the progression path the devs want to see it happen at a decent/fast pace.

CR/gear has always been the gating mechanism for content entry. Mods, augments, artifacts, allies, none of that has ever been taken into consideration. CR/gear gets you in the door, as it always has. What a player does after they get in the door is on them, as is how much they engage in the extra add-ons like mods/artifacts/etc.

Although youre right for the majority, its still possible to be effective with all of those missing items/stats. Is that going to happen when a player has no further experience? No. But you can make up for missing stats purely with skill - up to certain point - wich is pretty impressive imo.

What i've always seen as an issue is rather the way of how the game teaches us certain things and that if you dont pay attention or are simply not willing to learn, you will never get better. The only exception is if they actively communicate with other players in a group or league. That way most players will be taught the important stuff.


I have seen countless players that were almost useless even with 3 Rank 160 artifacts and max CR during random queues in regular content. Those players are usually not paying too much attention to their surroundings and are resistant to politely communicated feedback.
There are simply some players that are the way they are and even if they are a burden in those scenarios, i still managed to finish any pug run. It just took longer.


The problem with extending the grind would be, that new players get easily bored or are much harder to get to stick to a product - especially if its as outdated as Dcuo. By reducing the time of pointless grind until you actually get to do the stuff you wanted to do as you started playing the game, the majority will have more fun that way.
(Almost) nobody starts playing an MMORPG for the grind until endgame... , They start to reach the endgame and then build their character/skill and additional items (artifacts/allies).

Ink probably should create a story mode that connects all storied content in chronological order. Tailor them so a narrator can identify and illustrate transitions between each story to the player. Add missions that overlap feats that can be done solo and at level if they can.

The idea is for the player to have an intuitive reaction to content that helps them view it as two pieces: story and end game. Right now, the game throws too much storied content at the player without much regard on whether or not the player has completed them in order. Further, there should be an incentive to complete them all up to the latest such as earning the shader comic material with a feat attached (fitting since it's about clearing stories that are based in DC comics). Having a clear and visual story menu (story to do list) may help as well.

Story is a main incentive to do content in DCUO (it's praised for its story and voiceovers) for newcomers and should be "easy" to follow as well as rewarding to experience. Players wanting to go through all the story beats of their own volition should solve the issue of getting to endgame too quickly.

Bottom Line: Focus on Story and its rewards to enforce the idea that its helpful to go at a moderate pace to endgame.

Side Note: Recommend developing a FFXIV Trust-esque system to help new players in content where no ones available. To be frank, this system should be opened up to content that have the least amount of traffic despite where you are in DCUO.

I'm not opposed to the CR Skip or the effort to get as many players to End Game as quickly as possible. I just hope those players who are taking this route to End Game will learn how to play, understand their roles, and be open to helpful tips from others.

im fine with the speed to end game, but there needs to be a post 30 tutorial explaining how the game actually works

That is completely different than a CR skip. You knowingly used your knowledge to speed level your way to the end. Why should you not be able to do that? An inexperienced player would not be able to do this without doing research on how to do it. But is that a good thing? Do research and have an easier time.

The CR skip on the other hand does not do this. You buy a skip without having to do research or have any working knowledge of the game. 2 completely different situations.

A new player can unknowingly speed through all the way to end game now that all the barriers have been lifted and the game hands out free gear like it was Halloween candy. That may not be a problem for some of you but it is a problem.

But there is a difference between someone getting to endgame at a fast pace and someone grinding their way to EG within a few days. Someone doing random stuff and getting gear does not get you gear at the pace of doing one of the many cr grinders.

Gotham wastelands doesn't help things either

There's a few things here to unpack in at least my opinion.

1. You have existing experience that distorts your perception of how easy it is to level a character and progress, experience not possessed by a new player and thus you cannot expect that they'll replicate your experience - they won't.

2. It probably is quite easy to get to end game, but that's because that's where the game wants players to be spending a chunk of their day to day activity, with other players where its active, this is to increase engagement levels, an engaged player keeps playing and in DI's interests, considers spending.

3. Newer Players and CR Boosted players have largely speaking inadequate resources and knowledge to boost themselves quickly in every aspect of the game other than visual combat rating, they'll lack artifacts, SP, generators, allies and so on and they're not going to get them rapidly, this means they're going to less effective in any content.

4. Seeing a lot of these types of players around might make life a pain when running content, but isn't necessarily a bad thing, the more of them around the more indicative it is that the game is still growing and finding new players, which is important.

5. It would be nice if new players engaged a little more in chat at times, welcomed feedback and suggestions and in turn it would be nice if the existing community were perhaps just a little less toxic towards them.

Have you leveled a new character from scratch recently? They're here at end game, completely unprepared. I know that's not their fault and maybe brainstorming ideas to help them out would be more proactive than dismissing someone else's experience.

That was always the case. The only speed bump I remember was Halls of Power Part I where people had to buy the gear because drops were too low. The only way around it for that episodes was to have friends/league-mates take them into the higher content where they would get knocked out a lot. A year later, and they didn't even need that because most players were so over-geared it didn't matter if a lowbie was barely participating.

I joined around the time of Origin Crisis and reached end game in a few months through casual play. I had something like 40 skill points when a league-mate told me I should be focusing on them. Inexperienced players at end game isn't a new issue.

I was referring to episodes barring F2P and most premium players from most episode content. Now that episodes are free you can just get off the harvester ship and just go. There is no stopping point for new players in the game anymore except end game.

That has been the case since before it was this easy to level toons. There have always been a lot of players with either low gear or bad set ups. That has less to do with speed at which people get to EG and more to do with their level of experience. I actually have a bunch of CR skipped toons who all do good. That is because of the player using them. I have also leveled some toons from scratch. I also helped a friend level a toon from lvl 30 to 330 (min lvl during the last DLC). So yes, I am very aware of how easy it is so speed level. Again, I do not have an issue with players finding ways to do this. The issue is skill level we end up getting in EG. That is a bigger issue to me. The quality of players reaching these levels has been a big issue for a while now. IMO stats clamp has been slowly helping with this. Other factors can definitely help with this too.

But that is a different discussion.

Yes there have always been players with bad setups at end game and yes it has always been no issue to fast level a character, no one is arguing these things. The issue is, with the recent changes to the game, we now have a surplus of inexperienced players being fast tracked to one side of the game.

Then this thread isn't for you. This is a game, we play to have fun and some of us are not having fun. We're looking for ideas that could benefit everyone.

The same argument can be made in contrast. To some level the grind to EG is fun (not me personally) but to some. I don’t actually know if there’s a larger amount of players than normal in EG that fit this bill. I think it’s emphasized more since the mechanics have been more team heavy recently. One player being able to kill an entire fight because they can’t seem to block or that one player that can’t seem to grasp to not use orbitals. Or that other player that can’t understand the charge mechanic so gets players killed by standing in wrong spot. Or hitting the wrong button on a platform.

Recent dlcs, especially this dlc have a larger emphasis on this which does highlight bad players faster.

If someone wants to grind a new toon up to endgame why should we not allow this? If someone knows how to do this effectively to the point that meets the description in this thread than I doubt that they are the ones causing issues. It would be more the ones who stumble into EG without knowing they are doing anything wrong (or refuse to believe it) that are the issue.

For example, nth metal. I can manipulate the system to allow me to get nth metal drops sub 3 minutes instead of the 8 minutes that people see. I do this by using my knowledge of how the system works to my advantage. I use this knowledge to get my arts up at the right moments (using events to my advantage) that have good synergy. Someone else without said knowledge would stumble into EG with lower arts and even arts that don’t synergize.

The example being that I can “farm” nth faster than a less knowledgeable player similar to how I can grind gear faster than a less knowledgeable player.
I can use the nth to get arts faster similar to how I can get better gear/set ups than a less knowledgeable player (IE rainbow builds or mixed role gear).
I can get better synergizing arts similar to how I can have a better functioning set up (build/loadouts/rotation) than a less experienced player.

Why the comparison isn’t exact you can see what I mean. These players will make their way to endgame regardless. The issue is more of their knowledge once getting to EG more so than how fast they get there. IMO

That's the way they want it to be though, the developers clearly want people playing as much as possible, as quickly as possible and as smoothly as possible.

What it needs to do though and where it needs to improve, is there needs to be a prompt pushing people backwards at the same time as forwards towards getting skill points.

I leveled up a character just 2 days ago actually, in virtually just a few hours (but I really know what I'm doing and also have resources), during the leveling process it prompts me about artifacts, prompts me about allies, but doesn't again prompt about skill points after the initial prompt at the very beginning of the game.

One thing it needs to do is remind the player after level 30 about skill points and prompt them to enter old content and look at getting feats, by the time a new player has reached level 30 they probably could do with a prompt about it again highlighting their importance and that there is a vast wealth of content where feats can be obtained and outright tell them to focus on that at the same time as focusing on CR progression.

Do you remember when you had to consistently pay Daybreak to have access to episode content and rewards and better gear? There was an entire population of players that just didn't get into that for different reasons so they got as far as FoS3 FoS2 FoS1 and that was it for them. Those are the people we're seeing now. Oh I'm sure there's a few good apples in there that actually want to learn the game and build their characters properly, you can tell the difference between someone who's actively trying and someone that just learned how to hit X on their controller when the prompt pops up.

Not understanding or paying attention to mechanics can fall on veterans as well. But the mechanics are just part of the problem. If someone queues up as a healer, you would expect that person to have at least one heal in their loadout right? If someone queues up as a DPS you would expect them to actually hit something, not run over to the nearest wall to start changing their costume? Something looks fishy on the scoreboard so you inspect the CR 372 Electric DPS and they're wearing four Rank 20 Vitality Augments... And then you make the mistake of asking and the response is "blue is my favorite color"...

And I know this is nothing new but before where you could have one bad apple, the odds are you will be matched with two or three bad apples. And I know LFG is the best option to avoid running into people like this but running from the problem is not a solution. Useful information and tips need to be implemented in the game somewhere. If I were a new player and I had a particular question about my role or aspect of the game I was confused about: I should be able to just pull up the menu, tab over to a 'Help' section to either read an explanation or be directed to ask here if my question wasn't answered. If it were at all plausible I would suggest adding tutorial missions for levels 1-30 specific to that player's powerset. If that player picked a healer powerset for example, they get a few missions at certain milestones that teach them easy to understand basics about that role and what they should expect in group content (but the group is NPCs).

If someone wants to grind to endgame, I'm going to assume that's a somewhat experienced player. I would never advocate slowing down veteran players that are leveling new characters. But for the newer players there needs to be pausing points. I wonder if self evaluations could be implemented?

This is just dramatic. You don't learn anything until you're EG anyway. /thread.