At this point I don't even care about not getting new PvP content.....

All i want is regular balance updates, and for bugs to be fixed in a timely fashion.


I feel like we shouldn't have to beg for an aspect of the game to work properly.

you might get new "content" (maps, armor styles, etc), but what you're asking for is both a waste of time and an impossibly painful catch 22 for the devs. or at least the first demand is, regular glitch fixes are entirely possible as is new content (new stuff), however "balance" updates is not happening. why? because no one will agree to what "balanced" is. is it your idea of balanced? or the hundreds of other people who pvp's idea of balance? people's opinions are like snowflakes, there are thousands of them around the world and no two opinions are exactly alike. they can do 2/3 of those mentioned but the last one isn't happening.

Not to mention: balanced for what? 1v1? 2v2? 4v4? 8v8? all of the above? balanced in concert with every other possible weapon/power/movement choice available? It's not remotely possible without intensive and pedantic attention or severely limiting our options.

There's no feel like. You shouldn't have to beg, conform, or create a power-point presentation explaining why aspect of the game should work. Period!

I still agree but I wouldn't mind if they deactivated support role buffs/effects in 1v1/2v2. In 1v1 especially, support roles turn PVP into an obnoxious Prisoner's Dilemma variant with a slight majority of players making the worst choice available. Kinda wish that instead of scrapping RPS altogether they'd have just relegated it to 8v8, turned it off for 4v4/5v5, then forced DPS only for lower.

I don't even care about balancing. "Balance" has always been a subjective term that was open to each individual's interpretation. We haven't had a new powerset in over a year; it's not like something like League of Legends where there is something new that actually needs balanced to the rest. I can accept it and take it as it is, for better or worse.

My only real PvP request I try to keep as realistic as possible. Could we get ONE new PvP suit per year, just one, so that there was something to keep grinding for. You can make each year basically one PvP Season, and come the next year, we get one new suit where everyone can start grinding again.

We get 4 Episodes per year, each with 2 new style sets, plus 5 time capsules per year, each with a new style set. We're already grinding out 13 new style sets every year, sometimes more. I'm sure we could make just one to add as PvP102.

I feel like this is over complicating things and making excuses. Do you guys really sit here and accept everyone using the same 1 or 2 powers because they crush all others because "balance is so complex and metaphysical why would any mortal hope to achieve"...

Ridiculous. Is it not as simple as comparing the damage output of each powerset numbers wise? Take one toon vs. a single dummy, test different loadouts, crunch the numbers. Do the same for each powerset. How do these powers produce on just raw, unchallenged output? Then we test it against another player. How do these powers produce when challenged and dealing with counters and CC? Crunch the numbers, compare, who OBVIOUSLY outperforms? Is this so hard? Could we not do the same when we're looking at how tanks perform under pressure? Are you telling me the devs can't find any numbers to use as a starting point to even out these powers?

It doesn't come down to which power is good in which map against how many players or with what weapon type. That is a ridiculous approach. It must be about how these powers work at base level and if their max and min output hits the same range number wise. THEN it becomes the player's responsibility to be good in 1v1, to use those powers well in cooperation with other players in group content, vs other players. To use those powers well with their weapons. It should never be that a power is inherently better on this map or that map or with this weapon, that isn't balance, that's a built-in advantage.

No one is asking for perfection, people just want stability. And even though we all see that there are powers with huge advantages, you all just say "welp, nothing can be done because everyone in the universe couldn't agree." Madness. None of you want to see any type of progress made ever? Is demanding improvements from the people we're paying too much to ask?

No

OK well firstly, thanks for ignoring everything else I said. But do you have a reason as to why it isn't simple?

Everything else stemmed from your initial assumption. DCUO PVP is a 3D + flying, multi-objective non-fighter with approximately 500 billion potential permutations per power, and that's not even factoring in role buffs, PIs, support effects, and modes. High-end, strictly dedicated 2D fighters with negligible, set-in-stone move-lists, a single game mode, and no support effects can barely achieve a semblance of balance. Legends can be reasonably balanced. 1v1/2v2 Arena could be better balanced if they'd restrict it to DPS only. Beyond that, it's not functionally possible. That said, a lot of what people consider broken isn't, it's just dumb that certain things are allowed in certain modes (eg. roles in 1v1). DCUO has more in common with Magic: The Gathering than it does with traditional competitive games.

I couldn't disagree more. What is wrong with roles in 1v1? With a DPS v a healer, neither has the advantage automatically because the healer does significantly less damage than the DPS. The DPS does significantly less healing. DPS v Tank, same concept but with defensive power. The scale isn't tipped in anyone's favor based solely off role in a 1v1 (now that RPS is gone). What one role lacks in defense they make up for with offense and vice versa. So I definitely disagree with that entirely.

And on top of that, when we talk about balance we can definitely begin with damage output. There are players who crunch numbers for guides, we can measure damage output in varying scenarios. Would you deny this? We have dedicated players who make deep, technical guides and show all the numbers for everything. We can measure how well tanks survive under pressure, how well healers can restore health, we know how strong debuffs are, how much dominance affects CC, how much damage shields can absorb. We have general numbers for how well each power does with each role, that is definitely a start. I will never understand this idea that we absolutely have to have each power take a turn at being the best power because "oh jeez it's a 3d game nobody has ever been able to stabilize the powers in a 3d game every game is just complete chaos and the powers that are the best just happen to be the best at the time, they just roll the dice bro."

Ridiculous excuses.

We have numbers for everything, and even with all this data you say we shouldn't even take a shot at stability because... Other games can't? As far as you know? Maybe you're a dev and you just don't like the idea of having to do work to get some balance. I really don't see how this is so impossible to do when we literally have all the numbers in different scenarios.

dont know about you but i really miss the rock paper scissors aspect or healer > tank > troll > (healer) and so on to PVP of the old days especially for 4v4's and higher

Well as I've been saying for quite some time now, nothing will change. Why? They don't make any $ from pvp, didn't all of you notice how starting with Booster Bundles... then introducing time capsules, now the new OP Item system... it's all aimed at making you spend more money. You're not spending $ on pvp are you? As the old argument goes "pvp has always been free" so how is the free working out for everyone? It's so free queue times are just as long as all the older content if not longer, pvp phase is dead, and open-world pvp doesn't even exist anymore, it's about 1% of what it used to be.



- We started off by limiting options in pvp... remember we had Home Turf come out when pvp gear had white mod sockets so that entire dlc for a while introduced that strategy and tactics using white mods such as regenerative shielding, channeling, power efficiency and more. So we had many who didn't have all the perks as they were f2p, no orbitals, no henchmen or backup, and certainly no supply drops. All that was unbalanced you say? Okay I can see that, I surely can see that point of view but lmao how did all that work out for pvp? It died. Weapon Master, 1 shot kills in open world... celestial running rampant w/ 1shot ko's and now we have people as gadget bringing up shields, going invisible and using Amazonium Deflection just nothing but powers and maybe hitting block every so often... now that player props to him for finding a way to just flat out make it impossible to target then while invisible popping deflection that you can't even see!
- PvP isn't balanced when you're using a weapon you spec'd into but can't interrupt the player spamming a power at all, they can block on your weapon though. PvP has become one large Easy Button without risk or reward. What we need is pvp taken back to it's roots, have mods restored and trinkets allowed back in... NO! You say? Sure is funny back then pvp was alive even if it was unbalanced, I remember people spending $10 per respec token just to put their rivals in their place, sometimes 2-3 times a week if not more BUT that still wasn't enough $ being generated to sustain pvp updates and with licensing limitations on the characters and having to get approval we're not seeing fifty new characters in Legends.
- I say bring back all the things that made pvp ACTIVE, if this were a shooter like BF, COD, Division we see options for those, gun options and more ones that allow strategy - yeah you popped supply drop when low on health to hold the node BUT players who have no concept of holding nodes and think the map is based on number of kills are now mad that you held the flag using something they didn't have and in such a manner strategically that your teammate showed up before you died and you both killed the enemy. That wasn't fair? That's one point of view, it was fair for many who spent time grinding for back then not as easy to acquire marks to unlock everything for HT mods, unlocking your utility belt etc it's just very hard to believe that all those who wanted change weren't willing to work hard to acquire anything or spend any money on dlc and such, all f2p and pvp suffered for it. What's not fair is assuming a free to play game should cater everything including PVP to free players when in fact those who spend money for this game are the ones actually grinding the content and spending money on replay badges and episodes if not legendary - many aren't legendary but instead buy each dlc as it comes out, so the attitude has always seemed to be "cater to the f2p and only make changes based on forum only feedback despite that only representing a small portion of the community. Someone in shout the other day said an actual poll built into chat would be best, that would give the most clear and unbiased feedback some simple yes/no questions you could do /reply or /poll #option etc and that is a great idea to acquire feedback NOT just the forums, I was always baffled why changes were made due to a handful or players contributing feedback whether it was well worded and seemingly sound logic at the time or not, it wasn't the overall consensus from the player base.
- No No No Superturd you're wrong you say? Perhaps on some things like my opinion but facts are facts, back before those who cried on the forums had changes brought about and the "extras" like socket mods and trinks were removed which removed options, tactics, strategy and more... pvp worked and was alive and kicking - the pvp phase was sometimes more populated than pve phase. The player base was larger, without a viable pvp for play many moved onto other games and many of us know friends who would come back to play this if pvp changed and new players who would find it interesting and fun instead of doing pve, becoming bored once they're current and trying pvp only to find incredibly long queue times and non-existant 8's queue. Plus not to mention all those older pvp players who cried WARRRR for changes are now gone, where are they? Not playing pvp that's for sure.

Until the devs figure out a way to monetize PVP "we have no future plans for pvp at this time" is what I recall Mepps saying in another thread, that might not be verbatim but it's fairly close. They won't sacrifice having to revamp or balance pvp as it were or fix glitches, bugs, inbalancing of any kind if it takes time away from what makes them money. They're a company, one who wants money and if we don't pay we don't play the servers will go offline so we'll always be in a catch 22 can't "have your cake and eat it too" situation on pvp until the redo it where they make money on it, then they'll actually spend time on pvp imho and us in-turn more $ *cough cough ATTN: DAYBREAK CEO*.

put plainly, a burst power (rage, earth, munitions, water, etc) will always be more effective than a DOT (Damage Over Time) power like: (sorcery, nature, fire etc). even if a boss takes longer to burn or another player has more defenses the DOT is still at a disadvantage as they may get more damage in than usual but so will the burst player and they'll still do it faster, essentially the achilles and the tortoise principle conundrum http://platonicrealms.com/encyclopedia/Zenos-Paradox-of-the-Tortoise-and-Achilles. other games do not have this problem as they typically only give player combatants limited scripted attacks or limit them to weapons and bombs like fortnite. just look at overwatch or a similar game which constantly spends a majority of it's budget "balancing" powers and abilities. thus why it is "not that simple".

Not to mention that they also have to keep things balanced for PVE and they are a plethora of other common sense factors.

I'm still not seeing the challenge here. We know how many times a player can use a burst power over time, we know how much damage that will do over said amount of time. We can compare the burst damage over this period of time to regular DOT. Could we not then make improvements based off how each power measures up? Could we not have it where we get the general output of a burst centered power, compare that to the general output of a DOT power and then try to scale either up or down to get them into the same range of numbers?

You seem to have all this PLETHORA of common sense factors and information but all you've said this entire time is "we can't do it because people will have to do work to solve the issue."

All these ridiculous excuses just hold the game back.

no, because that takes out the point of people scaling up their damage through artifacts, gear, SP points rightfully earned etc. what i'm getting from all this from you is that "I lost a round, i want to be on equal footing it's not fair!". the powers work differently and hit harder or softer based on how much work is put into improving for a reason, personalized user experience, you might not "like" that a rage or other OP power beat you in PVP/duel, but with some work you "could" become better. no one is going to "level the playing field" just because people whine and beg about it being unfair, LIFE is unfair; the strong and smart survive in most cases, while those who are too dumb or weak to adapt live only temporarily and only do so by sheer numbers of their kind. if a smart kid goes to college and works for 6 years to be a business practitioner, is the hiring manager going to throw him out and hire your average joe schmoe with literally no education telling the college graduate "sorry state says you can't have the job because this guy here needs the opportunity." literally at the cost of the company's productivity? no of course not, life doesn't work that way.




trust me when i say that kind of thinking is VERY entitled, and that's coming from a guy who mains a nature healer/DPS, so it's not like this truth is just oppressing "you and only you", you CANNOT shout "you're only saying that cause you're (insert OP power here)!". it's the epitome of the phrase "there will always be someone better than you.".

So I haven't read your entire post yet but you're already absolutely wrong. So let's break this down.

When I talk about looking at the damage output of these powers and getting the numbers in the same range, I'm talking from a base level. Let's say two toons at level 30 with item level 30 gear on. I don't mean stripping away all the SPs, gear and artifacts and having everyone scaled down to the same level when they enter an instance, that defeats the purpose of playing the game, destroys the fun and doesn't even solve the problem of balance in this game. I'm talking about looking at the numbers AT BASE, getting them in the same range AT BASE and then allowing the players to scale up through SPs, gear and artifacts. Having the powers balanced AT BASE would ensure that there is balance at any CR, at any amount of SPs, at any strength of artifacts or augments because if another player wants to reach that power of strength, it wouldn't be about switching powers, it would be about playing the game and putting the work in. This is what I see as fair, having the powers balanced at their cores and then the actual strength of each power coming from how hard the players work and how well they know their power.

You know what they say about assumptions?

Funny how just a second ago you admitted that burst damage powers are inherently better than DOT powers because they'll always put more damage out. Now all of a sudden it's actually all about how much work the player puts in. What do you actually believe? Because there have always been FOM powers, there have always been top DPS powers and everyone has always known what those powers were and flocked to them to have that advantage. Funny how we have always had powers with unnecessary and huge advantages but wanting a balance we could easily achieve is somehow whining. Wanting progress, wanting skill and dedication instead of inherent strength to determine the better player is somehow whining. I've never seen someone openly advocate for imbalance of powers like this, I can't say I'm surprised though.

I don't beg. I don't whine. I just share the facts.

Well DCUO isn't life so this is completely redundant on 100 levels. We have literal, physical data and numbers to get these powers into the same range of strength.

Sounds like you have some personal issues to work out, pal.

It's entitlement to want skill and work to determine victory instead of switching to whatever power is OP at the moment? You really believe this? It's entitlement to want experience to determine victory over exploiting a broken mechanic? You really believe this?

Where is this even coming from?

Yeah. I have no problem with that. If someone is better than me, they're better than me, it's inevitable. If someone is exploiting a broken mechanic that ruins the game, does that still make them better than me? Or does that mean there's a problem the game needs to fix and we should expect the devs to do the work we're paying them to do?

I can tell I won't get anywhere with you because all you've done is assume, call me dumb and let out some random boomer rant based in 0 facts and probably some deep bottled up emotions. But I can do this as long as you're willing to make yourself look bad.

one you didn't read my entire post, so nothing you say is reliable. secondly nothing you've said so far has remotely denoted you wanted "base powers" modified and for "skill to matter". third obviously flavor of the month powers DO have an obvious advantage starting out, they always will........ what i STATED does not contradict earlier statements in the context of earlier posts read the "there will always be someone better than you." quote, as obviously there will always be someone better, but that doesn't mean with skill and effort you can;t become equal to if not better than a good many flavor of the month users. fourth, you won;t get anywhere because you have not effectively made your point, and lastly, don't ad hominem act people personally, that's just plain dishonest. again nothing you've said so far has mentioned "skill", SP, ARMOR, or anything else to do with EARNING that damage, so you can't say i "assumed" anything, i made a logical leap of reasoning based on the information YOU provided me, don;t try to put words in MY mouth and i won;t put them in YOURS. but i WILL read your own words back to you as proof of your own point and logic. you cannot use the "holier than thou" argument to try and cover up your point because quite frankly........ you never AT ALL brought up earned SP and gear nor did anyone else until I brought it up, so it's a little too late to be acting like that was your idea all along. by the way i didn't call you "dumb", i called you entitled, which means you think you YOURSELF are dumb, now who's projecting and speaking from the emotions?

Again, I didn't read your entire post and you're already wrong. So let's break this down.

But I literally responded to everything you said in your post?

Even when I said "I'm talking about looking at the numbers AT BASE, getting them in the same range AT BASE and then allowing the players to scale up through SPs, gear and artifacts. Having the powers balanced AT BASE would ensure that there is balance at any CR, at any amount of SPs, at any strength of artifacts or augments because if another player wants to reach that power of strength, it wouldn't be about switching powers, it would be about playing the game and putting the work in." ?

I don't know how else I could spell it out for you honestly.

This:

a burst power will always be more effective than a DOT power. even if a boss takes longer to burn or another player has more defenses the DOT is still at a disadvantage as they may get more damage in than usual but so will the burst player and they'll still do it faster.

Contradicts this:

the powers work differently and hit harder or softer based on how much work is put into

When we're talking about balance, which we are.

This is not at all the point. You are missing the entire point. Can't say I'm surprised. Anyone can be better or worse than someone else, duh. Anyone can work to be better, duh. The point is that there is an imbalance built into the game regardless of how "smart" or "skillful" you think you are, regardless of how much work you put into.

If there is already an imbalance of strength regardless of skill, regardless of gear, regardless of experience, regardless of SPs, it completely ruins the system. Why should I do better when I can switch to this power and exploit this mechanic? Why should I learn some moves or learn how to time counters or grind as hard for gear when I can just switch to this power and exploit this mechanic?

Do you think switching to a strong power instead of gaining the strength through practice is "skill"?

I have laid everything out as simply as possible for you. You've addressed nothing I said. That's your own fault for either choosing not to read it or not being able to read at all.

????

Did I do this?????

Even when I said "I'm talking about looking at the numbers AT BASE, getting them in the same range AT BASE and then allowing the players to scale up through SPs, gear and artifacts. Having the powers balanced AT BASE would ensure that there is balance at any CR, at any amount of SPs, at any strength of artifacts or augments because if another player wants to reach that power of strength, it wouldn't be about switching powers, it would be about playing the game and putting the work in." ?

I don't know how else I could spell it out for you honestly.

Well considering you skipped over me mentioning working for strength instead of switching powers to whatever can be exploited at the moment, you skipped over me mentioning that we have all the data on all the powers and all the roles and we could use this to balance the powers and you skipped over me saying of course anyone can work to be better - I think it's safe to assume you actually didn't make any type of leap to provide anything. And you definitely didn't read any of my words back to me, if you even read them, doesn't seem like it.

Even when I said "I'm talking about looking at the numbers AT BASE, getting them in the same range AT BASE and then allowing the players to scale up through SPs, gear and artifacts. Having the powers balanced AT BASE would ensure that there is balance at any CR, at any amount of SPs, at any strength of artifacts or augments because if another player wants to reach that power of strength, it wouldn't be about switching powers, it would be about playing the game and putting the work in." ?

I don't know how else I could spell it out for you honestly.