Block Breaker/Vulnerability Window Timing

I knew my lack of PVE experience would catch up with me .

I don't want an even playing field, I want to help new/inexperience players step up their competition and get better. What you are asking is--"Let's put weights on all the pro-athletes so everyone runs the same speed." What I am asking for is--"Let's put the rookies running laps and doing drills so they can run faster." It is two totally different things. My idea of skill isn't everyone being equal, it is requiring practice, knowledge and ability to come together in order to win.

Tunso stated he added cast bars because he caved into the community outcry at the time regarding the multiple attack nature of range attacks.

You've stated your opinion, we've stated ours. Let other people have their say without you trying to take over the conversation please.

My opinion--don't like it and think it will ruin the combat system.

I'm still not understanding why we can't go back to how the mechanics were BEFORE the previous update/dlc. They weren't perfect, but they were playable. It's been a month now do you guys just not know what shattered the mechanics?

I wonder who else is since "beta". Anyways, it doesn´t matter if someone played since beta or not, the actual generation of players is better than way back in the day. And only a bunch of them remain at the top, not all. And, who are all this "players since beta" that are vs clipping?

I only see 1 and it´s kinda baddie. So glad i never played in beta if it was like that. If beta players were that bad..

Most of the players who played in beta (or 2 months after are completely for clipping. I still talk to some of the older PvPers and they don't play atm because of the shattered mechanics, and didn't play before that because of HT. It's made healers/tanks self sufficient. Which is ironic because that's what spytle said was the reason they removed the other pets.
Some how a healing pet and trinket that completely restores your health and power to full don't make a class self sufficient, but a snowman, and Seed pet that stuns do.

Point is we're all for clipping, but giggles.

This would be a very slippery slope adjusting clipping in this manner Tunso. In regards to people's points over skill vs a new player that is the whole point. If a beginner vs a seasoned player has exact same advantage over one another there would be no longevity to this game. The point is for a player to not only learn the current immunity mechanics but to also master their powerset in regards to its animations and combos. This keeps that beginner interested because they see this going on in duels or happens against them and they want to improve. This is how it was introduced to me on New Frontier when I would duel. The point of this clipping skill (and I know that "Skill Matters in DCUO" is a mantra a few devs have adopted as ive seen them quote that on these forums. The point of clipping is to make it not so predictable, if I can clip the elbow drop or smoke bomb then the opposing player wouldn't be aware to block it. Same goes for BB's, lunges etc, look at HB a typical player wouldn't expect an interrupt from a lunge because its so slow and they think they can just anticipate it normally and without clipping that would be the case.

Im not diving into the pve implications because pvp is the center of this discussion. I haven't played other MMO's but when I talk to people that have they always said it was the combat system and its uniqueness that kept them playing. Yes that was in the old days before the blue immunity was introduced but clipping was always around.

For the people that are against it, those individuals just obviously never took the time to properly learn that technique and want the game more straightforward, but all that will do is kill the combat longevity.

and with a broken system nothing can be taught. I don't think anyone (besides one person) is asking for something new. Just a return to what we had. Responsive mechanics that could be taught.

You've been in a losing battle for a long time now.

As far as the developers go.. I think the only thing removing (or slowing down) clipping would accomplish is make more players leave and have the remaining spec into might. If dull, one-dimensional and boring gameplay is what you're aiming for then I'd say you're on the right track.

The combat system of this game is the best selling point it has.. that over the years has also factored in clipping. If improving on it isn't possible.. please, leave it alone.

If you're truly concerned about having full animations then you would not be on board with tunso's suggestion. Canceling ruins the fidelity of an animation just as much as clipping would. Canceling attacks would probably be even more confusing to new players and would still be susceptible to "abuse" by experienced players.

For example, spin chop has a noticeable delay before the attack completes which is enough time for someone to see you jump, causing them to block, and you canceling with phase dodge to immediately go into a block breaker.

@ Giggles,

Concerns have been voiced for years about balancing front loaded damage in PvP, and your statements are entirely valid. It can be a real problem at times and has been in the past. Still, changing game mechanics, such as eliminating clipping, implementing the home turf mods/trinkets or adding immunities, only sullies what was once an amazing and robust yet simple and intuitive combat system. I am not sure why the developers feel the prerogative to constantly tweak things that were working incredibly well by overlaying cumbersome, burdensome and largely unproven systems on top of that base system.

If this gaming community has demonstrated anything, it's that it has a collective ingenuity for solving in-game tactics and strategies employed by NPCs and PCs alike. I believe that characteristic is derived from confluence of the gaming communities that this game has drawn from, as well as the great job the Dev team did initially crafting this game. I've played a lot of online games ranging from super slow-paced MMOs to super faced paced, hyper competitive pure combat and sports games. When this game has its combat system on point, it's among the very best, most stimulating and most rewarding games I've ever played, bar none.

If anything, the combat system should become less cluttered and move back to a more simplistic, responsive, faster paced system. However, to counter balance that paradigm shift, defensive powers, seldom used CC effects like the various encasements, under utilized stats (like dominance) and movement modes should be buffed significantly or given a much more central role. Doing so would provide this savvy and collaborative player base with the adequate tools to solve their own problems as well as increasing the importance and viability of controllers and tanks on the battlefield, an ongoing complaint. Super-imposing clunky systems to throttle back the game in an effort to stifle front loaded burst damage, also serves to throttle back that great spirit which drives the player base. Eliminating these systems in favor of simpler mechanics and buffed powers would simultaneously increase the performance of the combat system and also nurture the player base to be the problem solvers that they are. Doing so would cultivate a community that is more collaborative wholly and one that has more long-term enjoyment out of the game, as they feel like they can truly make a difference to their gaming experience with their power sets and player skills.

There is so much of this game that just seems so under-utilized and maligned for no apparent reason and that would seem to be infinity easier to manage and implement. I don't want to speculate why that is as it is not in the spirit of this thread and really probably not appropriate for public forums like this one. So I'll just conclude my thoughts as they pertain to this thread with that.

Lastly, I truly applaud Tunso (and the rest of the development team) for reaching to the community in this regard, it takes a lot of grit and professionalism to allow others to take inventory of your flaws.

• Hmm, I understand what you are going at here, but wouldn't this essentially be the same as just adding a cast bar to force the animation and thus actually make it less fluid and more A+B=C? If there is a sequential order to attacks, that's fine, but in the case of real life motions, one can do two things at once to achieve a single goal. An example would be, you have a bowl a soup, a piece of bread, and a spoon. You can sequentially take a sip of soup then a bite of bread or you can dip your bread in the soup and do both at the same time. You still have the option of either. In the case of supers, mixing their powers with their weapons is what a lot of weapon yeilding power users do. Actually, unless the power is the weapon itself (Big Barda, Deathstroke, Batman {Physical and mental attributes aside.}), most weapons are some sort attribute to their own power source. (Power Ring, Cyborg, Guy Garder: Warrior.) In a way, I would much rather see the animation go through, but the power's be clipped by the weapon.
• I like being able to avoid a block, when you know it is coming and you can't get out of it. Just like I like how you can cancel an animation to avoid a Boss's AOE or blast. This would most certainly change the way counter mechanics go, it would also add a level of skill to PvP, where simply knowing when to block will do you know good, but I'm not sure if this should go into PvE even with the adjusted Match Mechanics for NPCs. If there was a way to seperate them, that would be great, but NPCs have a different way of attacking than actual players do as well as their health is different too to allocate for that they are NPCs not players. I feel that changing it would be better for PvP, but would actually hurt PvE. I really like how you guys are trying to meld the seperation of them, but I feel this would drive the wedge further between them.

Tunso. I recently went on Test server to test the improved mechanics, and I must say I see much improvement! Good job so far!
But there is more to be done. We noticed some pretty shaky things on live around 2 weeks ago, we tested them, and sadly our theories were right. We wanted to double check on test before we go public so we're not jumping the gun, but sadly it is on test. I feel if you fix this problem the mechanics will be spot on, and there won't be a need for these new mechanics you are trying to implement.

@ the moment on both Live and Test server If you BB and go into a Block (like most do when anticipating a lunge) the BB vulnerability window is infinite. Until you combo, or unblock>reblock. Here is a example via video. Has anyone felt like they've been robbed while Blocking? This is why. If you could fix this, and keep the rest how it is (on test) the mechanics will def be tightened down.

Live Server


Test Server


Like I said if this is fixed, and the mechanics are Responsive again I feel there is no need to implement the new system you are talking about.
Thanks to Queen Roxanne for recording, u rock doug. +1 million likes for repping #DEEPSEADIVERS

Side notes
Oh, and @ the beggining rox gets a bit jumpy and lunges me within the first 2-3 seconds. Skip ahead and you'll see on the test one that I do 2 laps around the map, come back, lunge, and the lunge connects punishing Queen who had BB'd and gone into a block 30 seconds before that.

This can also happen through several players, as seen in the second video (test) I BB'd>Block and mega BB'd>Block. Queen Waited Lunged me, I got punished then directly lunged Mega and he was punished as well.

Computer enemies can block anytime to cause a block counter even 1 second after i hit them and, they still get the block counter also weak attacks are getting block countered by computer enemies. A basic strike gets block countered nothing in the game states those moves are suppose to be block countered.

This guy gets it.

Agreed

I’ve said this before but the problem here is that people adopted the word “clipping” to mean two very different things and confusion persists to this day. One was the legit behavior of allowing you to interrupt a weapon attack with a super power so you didn’t need to wait in excess of two full seconds before you could cast a life saving heal for example.

But people also used the term “clipping” to describe an exploit whereby people could use a macro keyboard to confuse the input system and send a huge stream of attacks in a single packet. These attacks would be resolved in a single frame as a huge batch of attacks.

Unfortunately, people adopt the vocabulary they want to describe things. The same term was used to describe both “clipping” the intentional combat behavior and “clipping” the horrible iWin macro exploit. Insert of telephone game and you have the net result of utter confusion based on duel use of terminology that persists to this day. To be clear, using a super power to interrupt a weapon attack animation is intentional, legit and always was since early alpha builds. Macro exploits that confuse the input system to attack 100 times in one frame are not intentional.

What we're specifically talking about here is whether or not the attack gets to do damage if you use a super power too quickly after a weapon attack. In terms of feel and responsiveness, it will be the same. So you could still interrupt a weapon animation to throw a heal for example but the weapon combo would not cause damage if you used the power before the weapon attack landed.

Once the improved state messaging is in for GU 28, you won't be able to hide it. Even if you clip so flawlessly your character doesn't so much as twitch for a weapon attack animation, it'll still be evident that you can be interrupted if you threw a block breaker but clipped it with a power.

After thinking about it a day or so...I'm actually against it Tunso. Don't get me wrong, if you feel very strongly it is needed or at the very least would like to see it tried, I will be more than happy to Test it via the Test Server with others but I honestly don't think it would be a welcomed change to the masses (mainly PVE guys with PVP suffering a hit as well). You and the other Devs are doing an AMAZING job with GU27. I say fix the last little bugs here and there with GU27 and leave the combat system be.

I completely agree with the "messaging system". I'll take that over the "clipping a weapon combo eliminates damage" any day.

Yuck! I'll take a look at that, thanks for letting us know.

It sounds like the proposed idea of reducing the effects of clipping are too controversial/extreme of a change. So we'll keep things as they are now with that respect. Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions, I appreciate it!

I think the improved messaging, will go a huge way in addressing one of the bigger issue with clipping. You won't be able to easily hide your attacks just by clipping out of the animations, which I think will go a long way. Generally, things should make a lot of sense.