Fire/Any TANK - Couple of facts that most people are not aware of (Possible bug)

OMG! my PC shut off on me and lost like 20 minutes of writing. Anyway here is the short version of it.

I personally do a lot of testing on my fire DPS/Tank. I just don't report my finding on the forum. Anyway I figured I will share these.

1. Not all yellow damage gives a taunt effect in tank role.

a. Whirling dervish will not give a taunt effect.
b. Tornado Pull will not as well.
c. Might be obvious, but even though burnout pushes the mob back, it will not give a taunt effect.

Might be a possible bug?

Testing method: It's easy and 100% reliable. In duel mode, if a tank does a power, the opponent will receive a "Taunt effect" I didn't bother testing the iconic powers, but the 3 noted is what I remember that does not give taunt effects.


2. Taunt refresh window 8-12 seconds

That is not true at all. It's widely spread and it's false. I believe some PC person made this up and it's widely spread, but the fact is that their is no refresh window to refresh aggro. Their numerous of dc guide that claim this refresh window too.

Testing method: Once again I use the duel method. As I mentioned, it's 100% reliable. What I did was used a time watch and cast powers in tank role within the 12 seconds of a taunt effect. Data shows that it did NOT matter when I cast the power, the taunt effect will refresh. 2 seconds after a power, 5 seconds, 11 seconds, it all leaded to a taunt refresh.

For people that want to test it themselves:
Do this: Cast a taunt power+start time watch >>> wait 4 seconds+cast a taunt power (According to guides, it will not refresh taunt) >>> wait 9 seconds + have friend check taunt effect. (13 seconds total, meaning according to the refresh window, the taunt effect should technically be gone, since you didn't use the power within the "refresh window") but you will find that the taunt was refreshed when you cast the taunt power at the 4 second marked.


3. Timing dump Aggro to keep aggro all the time- possible?

I don't want to go too in depth with this one yet. I need to do further testing. I read a comment by krys mentioning that it's possible to time dump aggro to quickly regain aggro , meaning that if done properly, you can quickly regain aggro which would prevent the boss to jump to a random person.
I personally been testing this out on a basic level with M-BOT/O-BOT since it's a easy boss to do testing on. I still haven't record footage yet to further dissect if M-bot/O-bot random jump attack is completely random or timed or combo of a time limit/random but based on observation so far, I "think" that it's impossible to regain aggro prior to a jump attack from M-bot/0-bot.
Knowing that the refresh window of aggro is false, for testing purposes I literally spam taunt powers to see if I could regain aggro prior to a jump and still fail.

Stuff I noted as of right now:
1. M-bot jump spin attack is roughly 22-30 seconds unless its trigger by Health which I haven't test.
2. I'm aware that prior to the jump attack, it is pre-determine. I know that is a fact because I use to headblock Magic from jumping and even though magic did'nt jump, the target who magic was suppose to fly to still gets damaged.

Based on testing so far, the regain aggro is very small (less than a second) or its impossible or vary by boss.

Regarding your points:

1) I'm not superspeed so I don't know personally if this doesn't taunt. What exactly do you mean when you say "taunt effect"? There is no such thing as taunting in duels. Do you mean it's not granting the tanking bonus or the icon under your health bar? Burnout sure does taunt when I use it in raids, and just used it recently in a 4 man prime run for the breakout effects. Could be a bug if its not registering all the time.

2) The only taunt window that has ever been mentioned by the developers has been for 12 seconds. Every time you cast a power you refresh your taunt, the problem has to do with the scripted aggro dumps which happen so frequently. I think this is a case of one mechanic (the aggro dumps) being mistaken for another mechanic (taunt windows) that doesn't exist in the game. The end result is the same but the reasoning behind it is flawed.

3) It's still not possible to keep aggro 100% of the time even if you time the taunt refresh between attacks because there's no way to definitively nail down exactly when something does the aggro reset. Ideally, if you get the timing down between attacks, the closer you cast your own taunt to the beginning of the next attack animation, you'll have a higher chance of the enemy locking onto you. I get it to work about 50%-75% of the time, but there are other factors like lag or packet loss or just the plain timing being so different that it's impossible to do 100% of the time. Sometimes I can keep a boss focused on me for the entire fight without a single attack hitting anyone else, or I'll only get hit for 1 out of every 2 attacks.

I also believe that there's a scripted mechanic at work besides simple aggro dumps that forces bosses to go after other players besides the tank as this behavior is exhibited by many bosses. From my experience, timing the taunt refresh between attacks only really works for normal attacks and won't work on special attacks.

What I'm about to say is my own personal opinion, but using OBOT/MBOT for an example, their jumps attack are completely in my opinion are uncontrollable by a tank aggro. I don't think I ever lose aggro from "Normal attacks" .... just special abilities from bosses
like Magic jump attack, spin attack, Brainac random powers, meta purple ball and etc. Actually be specific when you say you "time" normal attacks, what normal attacks are you referring to that you think changes aggro (Boss and attack?; Don't use arc since he require too much testing and he only 1 boss) . I personally don't recall any normal attack wiping aggro.

Does casting Fiery Weapon (just casting it, NOT hitting anything with it) cause a taunt effect in the window on your duel partner?

Normal attacks are pretty much anything that isn't an AOE nuke or a skull attack - the standard weapon combo that most bosses do that lasts for four or five hits.

Those attacks you mention ARE pretty much independent of any and all tank aggro.

From my experience and from what I got out of the developer talking of the subject, aggro resets do not coincide with attacks but happen completely randomly. It's not like the boss does the attack, then wipes aggro.

I believe the sequence of events goes like this:

1. Tank taunts, boss locks on to the tank
2. Boss does his standard 5 hit weapon combo
3. Boss aggro resets in the middle of this combo
4. Since the boss continues his combo on the tank without switching targets, tank assumes he still has aggro and doesn't refresh his taunt
5. Boss finishes combo, waits half a second, then targets a squishy because that's what's actually at the top of the aggro list now

The trick is to time your taunt between 3 and 5, but because this varies so widely between different bosses (and could be dynamic) it's impossible to nail down 100% of the time. The highest success rate is to refresh your taunt at the end of a boss attack or combo in the half second before he starts another one. Most of the time it works, excepting the scripted attacks you mention which will always go after someone else besides the tank.

To answer your question, i'm "almost" positive that FW that not give a taunt effect.

It's been known that some powers outside the powerset don't always hold agro. They do sometimes though, but are really unreliable.

Very informative post with facts supported with evidence. Great help toward my tanking.

I never use those movement mode powers but... the bit about taunt effect going on an enemy in a duel is good. need to try this out some.

Though I'm pretty sure Burnout does taunt...Or used to, havn't been Fire since the update.

Keep in mind that the f1 tooltip has been horrendously inaccurate over the course of this game and it can't be used as 100% fact
You're right the taunts will refresh not sure who said otherwise. If 1 power is hit then you get top hate value +1 at second 0 and are locked at the top for 12 seconds, When the timer is up, if you never attacked, your hate value is what it was snapped to at second 0 (when the taunt) was done. Obviously a tank won't just hit 1 power and wait 12 seconds to reapply so that hate value will continually be kept at the top unless there is a npc scripted aggro reset.

The taunt is a snap to the top and hold for 12 seconds, any other attack or heal does a numeric change to the aggro amounts but never snap to the top. The main reason why 2 tank raid setups are not ideal is that the 12sec taunt is given to the most recent cast. Additionally, your taunt is 1+ the damage of your taunt and that value is locked in, so (not that it would happen) but if 2 tanks casted a taunt at the exact same moment, whichever power casted dealt more damage would be awarded the top hate value, but more than likely it will just be traded back and forth depending on which tank casted the taunt and is very inefficient way to run a raid.

Although we aren't aware of it there are numerous npc's in the game that have built in aggro resets which prevents tanks from holding 100% aggro 100% of the time. We can make guesses which they are but there are many from what I gathered from my conversation with the developer that explained the above to me.

I am sure this is by design. If you have ever played a game where tanks maintain 100% of aggro 100% of the time you know how boring that can get. It is the main reason I don't put much thought into maintaining aggro on my tank. I do not ignore it and I will use inescapable storm to pull any enemies off team mates and so on, but I do not sit there trying to calculate the exact moment to use a power when fighting a boss either. As long as my defense buff is maintained and the majority of attacks are pointed at me I figure I am doing my job.

Then if Burnout is also behaving this way, I would venture to say it's because those are the only two powers in the fire tree that cause no damage to other things around them, hence why the tooltip doesn't show up on those two abilities.

I can say in many situations that using those powers has caused aggro to snap to me, the biggest example is when I get pulled around in FOS2. Don't remember what update it was, but a long time ago the developers changed it so any power used in the tank role grabs aggro within 15 meters of you. This may or may not be the case now, but something like a gates run should confirm it.

Just stand next to the bird, wait until he attacks someone else, pop Burnout or FW. See if he turns towards you.

i'll give it try next time i get the chance

I cant deny any of this yet, but I cant say I support it either.

I actually use WD specifically for tanking, because I tend to run a "Damage tank" loadout for PvE. WD is very effective for CC's AND assuming it does hold agro, is very effective. However, WD is almost always clipped by another power....so even if WD does NOT hold aggro, the power ensuing will

I think most good fire tanks are hitting a power every 3 - 5 seconds anyway so a lot of this is all a moot point.

You are right, I never see a tank wait longer than 10 seconds to cast a power. I was just pointing out that a lot of people still think that their is a refresh window which is clearly not true.You see such statement everyday in the forum..

Regarding WD, burnout, and tornado pull not giving the taunt effect. Maybe it's bug? If not, it's still important to know because if your trying to get aggro back after a aggro dump using tornado pull...the tank is going to look silly.

I wont rule out that WD does not aggro, because WD is already rather odd. It is also vulnerable to block, which would give hint that in some aspects, this power is actually considered more of a precision move

It is clippable by offensive powers (suggests precision)
Its damage is dictated by might (suggests might)
Vulnerable to block (suggests precision)
Does it taunt? (If yes, suggests might. If not, suggests precision)

I honestly cant give an answer. I would not be surprised by either possibility though.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? I've never seen a guide claim that taunts can only be refreshed in a certain window. The 12-second figure is the duration of a taunt, unless the target resets aggro before then. But you can indeed refresh at any time before 12 seconds, and I'm kind of curious where you saw guides claim otherwise.

You do bring a good point but I believe tornado pull is yellow damage and based on my testing, it did not taunt. I will upload a video today using pve mobs to make sure using duel mode stand correct. I just need ppl from my job to get off the tv!

Trying to run a raid as a tank and using NOTHING but WD. See how you do. I will tell you if you are booted in the first 5 minutes, its probably because WD does not hold aggro

Were I at home and playing, this is exactly how I would test it.

Same with every other move in question.