[Suggestion] Vanguard revamp ideas

I suppose, but statistically it is the most durable out of the three, kinda like how NC MAX units are durable as well. Trade off for weapons is pretty much the downside too it, but looking at the history of balance passes on the vanguard, changes to its shield did threw off some of the balance to the main gun, then the main guns of tanks generally were made a bit weaker. NC tanks seem to put more on an emphasis for defense nowadays. Though when looking at the MBT's, the prowler can be combat effective in close and long ranges thanks to its anchor and twin cannon load out. Magriders maneuverability makes it effective in similar ranges too thanks to it. NC tanks have durability and a hard hitting gun, though only effective at long ranges. NC tanks do seem to lack in the close range combat area.

Don't bring logic and moderate thinking in here....

THIS.... IS...... FORUMSIIIIIIDEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*chest kick*

One of the Vanguards biggest problems, statistically speaking, is also it's relatively higher skill floor.

Mag's are easy to move around and use. Prowlers get 2 shots. Vanguards have the slowest acceleration, and the slowest reload punishing misses more than any of the other tanks.

To "fix" the Vanguard you'd have to homogenize it with the other factions, reducing damage per hit to increase RoF. Increase agility and reduce resistances.

If you just buffed it, sure, you lowered the skill floor, but you also raised the skill ceiling, and pros like our friend Alarox here would make me cry T.T

That's why you can toss out most of the "the feel..." posts, look at live game performance stats.

However, the "I feel..." posts are good to get an impression of how the game affects people, and many TR and VS hate and feel cheated by the Vanguard shield even in its neutered state today. This thread makes it no longer an "IWIN button" and makes the shield part of the inherent durability of the Vanguard, just as the high DPS dual cannon is inherent to the Prowler or the hover/strafe to the Magrider. It would no longer be a "get out of jail card", it would be a passive ability that a smart driver could use to extend the life of his tank while a bad driver would fail or could be outplayed by a TR/VS MBT in a 1v1.

I'm not really sure if its skill floor is that high compared to the Prowler/Magrider. Regardless, I think it is in a really good place right now. It is sluggish and struggles against infantry but it has a number of advantages that I think make up for that.

The only things I would mess with on MBTs right now are adding new ES abilities/cannons/secondaries to increase options and the viability of other playstyles, balance the current secondaries, and rework some of the NS stuff like combining the armor upgrades into "MBT Composite Armor".

The only time the Vanguard shield is an "IWIN shield" or "get out of jail card" is when the person attacking you forgets that you have it. It is a problem only because of their perception. They whittle down a Vanguard and then he pops the shield and they get mad, but they act like it wasn't a factor from the start of the fight. Your suggestion changes that, but such a fundamental change isn't worth doing in my opinion.

It is kind of like an Anchored AP Prowler attacking a Vanguard who barely manages to get away using the Shield, and so he thinks "If only you didn't have your stupid IWIN shield you would have died!". Well, guess what? If only you didn't have Anchor Mode or a higher-DPS cannon that Vanguard wouldn't need to run away and use the Shield.

Suggestion is nice, but Vanguard armor might need to be lowered a bit to compensate.

Really though, Vanguard is a TANK. The stats lie about its effectiveness. It may have less Score and Kills, but it has the armor to lead the charge, unlike Prowler and Magrider, both of which are tank destroyers, which every faction already has. (ex. Lightning and Harasser)

And if I had better DPS on my Magrider, I wouldn't need to run away with Magburner either...

And that's why I've said, this is not a buff thread, it is about bringing the tanks closer in line performance-wise. I don't want to see nerfs to other tanks, tanks have seen enough nerfs in this game.

As far as skill floor/ceiling is concerned, it is something we have to consider in a game of this size. Most players are awful, NC in particular is riddled with bads (because freedom 'murica), and the Vanguard is holding back the NC as a faction because of its higher skill floor. Sure, the top level tankers can do very well in a Vanguard, but there are only a few of them out there, and they aren't going to win the war on their own. I mean, not that territory really has any meaning in the game right now, but I imagine it will again at some point. (and that's another issue for another thread...)

Charging into a swarm of enemy fire is suicide for every tank, the Vanguard just lasts 3-4s longer before it dies. Ground isn't gained in field battles through armor charges across an open field, it is gained by taking down your opponent's defenses and vehicles. Not to say that the Shield can't be useful for going between cover or getting out of bad situations, but it isn't significant enough to let you easily push up in large battles. The NC has to deal with armor stalemates just like every other faction.

Ok, well making shield passive and not take a slot is an incredibly OP idea.

Even just always active is too much I think.

The reason the skill floor is higher is because it holds to NC traits... that's why I said "fixing" it, or lowering skill floor, would require homogenization...

And it's not like the skill floor is THAT much higher really.

I dunno, I'm just not sure how to change it that won't result in less faction flavor or in a buff that would make the vanguard flat out OP in skilled hands. Most of the difficulty/skill floor doesn't even relate to Tank vs Tank really... but to fighting Infantry. which causes bads to lose their tank before even facing the enemy tank... or worse, fighting both at the same time and doing so poorly.

At the same time though Alarox isn't everywhere at once or on PS2 24/7, and having a tank that performs worse in the hands of the average player has a very real impact on the Vanguard's ability to contribute towards victory for the entire faction.

That's the problem with balancing around "expert" players, because overall they don't have a huge impact in the outcome of alerts and such. Balance towards the average, and you tend to balance towards the most players who can make the biggest impact.

Except Vanguard shield helps survivability both in CQC and Long Range, as well as just increases survivability in general. Both Prowler and Magrider Abilities only help in med-long ranges

Yep, cause Magrider is great in the hands of the average player......

As the stats show, better than the Vanguard at least.

It's neither OP nor UP, it's just a concept that has no value without factoring in the shield strength, delay, and recharge rate.

Whether it counts as an ability and uses the utility slot is up for discussion, but I don't think it's worth throwing out the idea over.

That doesn't really make sense.....
The average noob will benefit much better from a straight armor buff than mobility that needs to be actively abused.

At the same time though the Vanguard is much less agile than other tanks, and doesn't have the DPS of the Prowler. The Vanguard is really only good at getting hit, and is rather poor at killing things or running away.

The result is that for the average player they can't kill very much and get killed themselves. A Magrider can maneuver much better (which for any infantry that understands WASD is pretty accessible) and the Prowler can just kill things before it itself is killed.

At least that's how I'd explain the stats. But regardless of the explanation, the stats still stand.

Anything that can improve the tank is a step in the right direction.

It both not fun to use (the shield) and not fun to play against so I agree that something needs to be done.

That being said, what you propose, as you yourself admit, does not add anything to the fun factor and still leaves the Vanguard as the Vanilla.

The idea of a power shot kind of ability is interesting and I've made similar suggestions myself previously. Though, as you also state, it is true that this overlaps a little with the idea of the lockdown Prowler- although personally I have yet to understand why more dhaka a la high RPM is so synonymous with more DPS because this does not necessarily have to be the case.

What is that margin again?

I think what they are afraid of is that balancing it with the other factions does imply a buff since it is the worst of the three.

The increased armor on a VG is only noticeable on the sides of the tank, the front of the VG takes the same number of front shots to kill as a prowler, or reloads as a magrider, while the VGs base side armor will take 1 additional shot/reload over magriders/prowler.

Basically shooting a VG in the side is basically the same as shooting it in the front, and rear armor increase is completely negligible, so take 2 noobs facing each other one doing noob strafing and the other just sitting there, the odds of the noob strafing winning goes up pretty dramatically.