Statistical liberators kill

If you refuse to use combined arms in a combined arms game you're in the wrong game.

The overall logic to the balance is quite solid actually. As covered in this post.

The balance in this game is not rock-paper-scissors. Everything is a possible counter to everything else basically. It's more a matter of the effectiveness of the roles. A tank can counter a Lib by using either his main cannon or his top gun (especially Walker / Ranger), but is not as effective as an ESF for example. Each counter can usually also be taken out by its target. An ESF can be taken out by a Lib, or a Lib can be taken out by a tank. There is no simple flowchart of effectiveness or counters.

If a spawn room full of infantry cannot counter a single hovering Liberator, there are several factors to consider.

The first factor, are the players just that bad or stupid? A hovering lib can be shot easily by a dumbfire rocket. If the hovering is exaggerated and he is actually circling in a semi-unpredictable pattern, then lockon launchers should still work. Another option is pulling a Burster MAX. From the spawn room a Burster MAX can shoot at a Lib without retaliation, forcing the Lib to move away.

Another factor to consider is whether different solutions can be thought of. If you are spawncamped, do you spawn a base back and prepare defenses? The Lib will come with the lattice to your next base, and chances are there will be a flak turret or 10 to man, depending on the base. You might also be able to spawn a Skyguard, or an ESF or Liberator to directly counter the Lib before he even moves.

In any case, saying that you're being spawncamped by a Lib and there's nothing you can do about it is patently false. Either you are ignorant, bad, or just unwilling to adapt to the situation at hand and be flexible in your solutions.

If we are going on a RPS balance system here, that means that ESFs are going to be buffed against Libs and Libs will lose quite a bit of their capabilities vs. ESFs.

Since this is a Air kills Air approach, I would like to propose that only Armor kills Armor, and Infantry only kills Infantry. Weapons meant to affect each other (AV, AI, AA) would only be deterrent weapons to the respective things they are meant to counter. Seems unfair right? Yeah, either dedicated AA gets to kill Libs (already kills ESF fairly quickly) or Libs get to only "deter" armor and infantry. I am not asking for a single burster to lock down a hex I am asking for things like the Skyguard to be able to one clip libs (rarely gonna happen with the COF and user error), get ex mags as a cert option, and maybe get a resistance buff on it's top armor with Skyguard equipped. Super simple balance changes that would make AA v. Air balanced.

If you want to talk about actual Lib counters then why wouldn't you just bring another Lib?

Your post, paraphrased: "No, I don't want to choose Paper. I want to choose Scissors! Nerf Rock!"

Sorry, the game doesn't entitle you to a free victory. If you want to win, you have to make better decisions than your opponents.

And yes, once you pick Paper (ESF) to counter Rock (Lib) you are vulnerable to Scissors (ground-based AA). That's how the game works:

• If you use no strategy/teamwork, you will have earned defeat.
• If you use the same strategy/teamwork as your opponents, for every victory gained you will suffer a defeat. (Your friendly tanks (teamwork) will engage the Skyguard as it damages you and the Lib damages your tanks, resulting in deaths on both sides.)
• If you use superior strategy/teamwork, you will have earned victory.

Game balance is about allowing Rock to counter Scissors, but realizing when Rock is doing too well against Paper (if Rock always beats Scissors and only sometimes loses against Paper, then people are going to choose Rock an abnormally large amount of the time.)

It's simple:

• What I'm describing is the way the game is.
• It's the way the game has to be, due to the nature of the designs of these weapons.
• So the solution is educating players that ESFs are the counter to Liberators. (This also elevates the conversation: no longer are we discussing "How to beat Rock without choosing Paper?" but the discussion moves onto the actual issue of "Does Scissors actually beat Rock consistently enough?" I feel the answer is no: that Liberators are slightly too good at fighting ESFs currently.)

Which is the whole point......Libs hover, get shot up, some leave, some dont. Meanwhile the Lib guns can effortlessly destroy any attempts to counter it. They can tank the AA Turrets, face to face. No Tanks even really pose a worthwhile threat and even teh sooooo OP Lockons, my buddy said about 10 would kill him and the dumbfires werent that much better.

Here is what. I tried to counter 1/3 Liberator (or 2/3, it quite behaved like there was only one man) by ESF. And I wasn't alone, there were 2 other ESFs with me. Here what happens:

We begin to chase it. 1 ESF get's Daltoned. Proceeding with pursuit. I see ESF next to me gets Daltoned as well. After realization that we're dealing with Dalton sniper (or hacker) I pull up... but getting Daltoned.

Please. Tell me more how ESF should counter Liberators. I'm all ears to listen to it.

I'm fine with Zepher. I'm fine with Shredder. But Dalton must be removed from the game and certs/SC refunded. Whoever brought this gun is one Clegged up son of a goat.

Liberator too cheap too strong nerf now!!!

Right, Liberators should lose agility, and aircraft should be a little more specialized (meaning I can take an A2A ESF that's especially good against Liberators but to do so I feel abnormally bad against ground forces; currently nosegun+coyote is barely any better at killing Libs than nosegun+rocketpods, which is also the best A2G loadout.)

But then the rest of your post devolves into senseless garbage, because the single purpose of Libs is obviously to kill ground forces and it should be good at that. It just needs to be specialized, so it doesn't also kill air. (Although it's fine for some loadouts to be better at air, if those loadouts make noticeable sacrifices in A2G capability, just as it's fine for there to always be a similar "generalist" loadout for ESFs.)

I think the Lib would be fine if it was more fragile. You get speed/agility over the ground units whilst also maintaining fire power so you lose some armor in the process.

Fly better. You shouldn't get Daltoned at all if you fly properly.

I get killed by Liberators every single day. (I use tanks).

Poor argument.

I should zigzag it to death? Or what? How am I supposed to shoot it?

And I forgot to mention the distance. It was furhter than 100 meters. Should I try to engage a constantly moving Liberator that changing trajectory from 300 meters? How am I supposed to hit it again? Mmm?

And what about other pilots that got daltoned? They should fly better too?

Dalton is terrible gun design. Devs placed a TANK CANNON on an AIRCRAFT that was used to be a CARPET BOMBER back in PS1 days.

The Liberator needs no combined arms, but apparently everything it is designed to kill does. When you use a Liberator, you can fight everything and you can go to any battle you want quickly. All you do is play the game and have a blast. This involves farming the hell out of everyone and getting massive score/hour.

The response is "you should team up with a bunch of other pilots and hunt them down" or "you and another person should stop what you're doing and pull two bursters/skyguards".

1.) If you pull AA, the Liberator will leave and come back later. This means you have to stay in the AA getting terrible score/hour while not doing what you enjoy.

2.) Even if you kill them, it only costs 350 resources and it is easy for them to come back into the battle. I once had to deal with a BR100 dedicated Liberator pilot trying to kill my tank. He got shot down 4 TIMES, and he and his gunner just kept pulling and coming back immediately after. If you kill a tank, that tank costs 450 resources and has to take time to move back into position. If you kill a Liberator, that Liberator costs 350 resources and can reenter the battle with ease.

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TL;DR

The problem with Liberators is that that aren't fun to fight against. They only make the game less enjoyable and frustrating for everyone else. They have no fun or skill based counters, and taking them down feels unrewarding when they come back anyway.

Skyguard is the most specialized weapon in the game, being capable of shooting down aircraft only (it does however have an obscenely fast TTK v. Phalanx turrets, but that is a damage resistance bug). Unless the Skyguard either gets incredibly good at shooting down all type of aircraft or gets a buff against Armor and Infantry, I see no reason for it to not be good at shooting down aircraft. Liberators have weapons that are simply good against just about everything (with the exception of most ESF pilots) because they can have a little bit of everything in their loadout.

If loadout switching was a sure thing, then AA could remain a deterrent, but because I am stuck with either an AA gun or an AP gun I have to be very careful which one I choose. Libs have the TB and the Shredder, which covers all the bases quite adequately (and of course they can take a Walker as a back gun if they wanted to).

Learn to play is not a bad argument in this case.

Which is 3 pilots flew in predictable patterns against an ace lib pilot / gunner and died because they didn't to use descending or ascending manuvers while trying to shoot down an unprotected lib. They were also quite silly for engaging it on an even level depending on where the belly of the lib is pointed. (or a hacker with aimbot / assist in which case your argument is moot).

You always want a height advantage so that when the lib tries to "belly up" he will be forced by gravity to descend towards the ground (and quite rapidly at that).

To spell it out. Learn your foe (his weaknesses and strengths). Learn yourself (your weaknesses, and strengths).
If through mastery of both you are still defeated.
Try another approach.
Such is the tao of life.

Remember guys, libs did have a high skill counter: AP, it was removed.

Tao described by words is not real tao.

Assuming what people say around here ESF is the only viable counter to Liberator. But also to become that counter the ESF pilot should become high skilled to kill the friggin dedicated A2G aircraft that for some reason happens to kill both air and ground!

Ahem. That smells badly. Like a field where a herd of cows passed by.

ESF pilots should not have to be ace to kill Liberators by any meaning. Yes Liberator have right to protect itself by tail gun. But no tail gun instagibs ESFs. Dalton does. And it's easy for any Liberator to go belly up to point a gun at you, no matter where you go. Unless that Lib flying too low.

Back in the days of PS1 Liberators were dedicated A2G units. Only against the ground. Because they dropped bombs. And only at certain angle. They could not go belly up and try to spit bombs at chasing Mosq. But they had 20mm tail gun to kill or scare away aircrafts that got on tail. And there was no seat swapping. If Liberator didn't pick up tail gunner it screwed against aircraft. So even bad pilots had chance to drill Liberators to death. And that's right, because Liberator was balanced. It had its role - stomping the ground and ground only. And that how it supposed to be in PS2. But noooo! Dropping bombs is not cool! Let's mount a 150mm tank cannon so it will be able to kill everything below and OHK enemy aircrafts! Really?

Edit: If Devs won't fix Dalton or remove it completely, I want a tank with cannon that would be able to get up to 90 degrees that shoots 150mm flak shells! Then I will call it fair!

No, you can also pull a Liberator. Or a Skyguard, or two, Or a Burster, or two. Etc.

You are supposed to not fly straight towards its huge cannon aimed right for your face.