[Suggestion] A comprehensive argument for Dual-Weilding

Looking over the numerous posts made on the matter, it has become quite clear, and as expected, there are two main divisions on this idea. . .One protests the addition while the other greatly support the idea while a few others are unsure or indifferent. . .I myself admit to a degree of bias in favor of Akimbo, but I would like to reason with why it could work, how it should, and what it provides in team ability. Get ready for a complete wall of text as I present my case as fairly as possible. . .

1. "The Light Assault needs his jet-pack, it's useless without it! LAs don't get tools or anything else special, its their only gimmick and how they play! That is thier role, to fly around and use superior positioning to get kills, no team support!"

The above somewhat dramatizes a few primary arguments about the role the LA plays, but I feel like the LA is not quite understood for what is is. First let me break down class roles based on equipment and its correlation to its class name. . .

The Combat Medic true to its name is the only class with free options to heal, the only class to revive, and have powerful assault rifles for killing. Its purpose should be immediately obvious, to heal, revive, and kill. It does that fairly well.

I'm not explaining every class here, but I want to draw a comparison to the LA's closest neighbor. . .the Heavy Assault. What is the heavy assault? Equipped with rocket launchers and mighty LMGs, the heavy assault can deliver high sustained damage and punch through thick tank armor and tear through aircraft. They can also use their oversheild to tank hits and continue their devastation. But then what is the light assault? Its the jump trooper right?

Wrong, but only partially. The main equipment the LA has access to are carbines, strong, closer range weapons compared to ARs or LMGs, with certain exceptions. The LA is also given C4 like most other classes, but is more famous for it. But its name. . .Light assault. . .That does not imply Jet-troop, rather, it is a class that is strong in brief yet intense bursts designed to cause maximum damage in a short period and withdraw to prepare for another thrust, another kill. This is given proof by its lack of tools, the nature of its improved mobility, and the devastating nature of the C4 LAs are known to carry. Not one weapon the LA gets is designed for staying in front of the enemy for long. The LA is designed as a "Glass Cannon" who is weak, but can destroy almost anything if you don't contain him or kill him. . . You could argue that his mobility with the jetpack is part of the "light" in the class name, but it can also be argued that it is his focus on his fragile shell, that surrounds pure devastation.

2. "Akimbo with even SMGs are too powerful! Some pistols can even instagib! Giving them a straight-up DPS and DPM increase isn't balanced at all even if you give up the jetpack!"

Here's the thing, yes it is stronger, but going by the logic that the light assault is a frail but mighty combatant who thrives in short but powerful burst, this sort of Akimbo fits the bill rather well. The main balancing point of Akimbo is sacrificing the sheer mobility for a more intense burst that lasts just a little longer. The loss of the third dimension severely hurts the LA survivability as he is limited in movement like normal units and no longer has the safer routes and roofs.

To compensate for this, the LA gains an admittedly frowned upon form of team support in gaining an increase to his kill potential. Having effectively doubled mags and a effectively better ROF (yes it WOULD have to be decreased quite a bit, maybe 45-40% reduction to result in a roughly 10-20% increase, this can be changed mind you so don't use my example as proof against it ) would be very strong indeed. . .until you have to reload as long as or possibly longer than LMGs! Possibly when you try to mow down a target out of hipfire range as you most certainly will not be ADsing! This reinforces the LA mindset of get in, get them down, kill anyone else around that you can, retreat, reload, rinse and repeat. Added to the above benefit for duel wielding also comes an additional cost. . .you are even MORE vulnerable than before during a reload as you have no panic secondary AND a longer reload. Sure you have your knife, but you shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight! This, again, works in harmony with the idea that the LA is frail but strong in burst damage.

Oh and the Instagib pistols? That is only if you score headshots or use commy against an infiltrator without nano weave. Most players are not capable of landing headshots that accurately. The players that are that good will probably be able to beat you anyhow using other methods simply due to superior skill and aim.

3. "We didn't ask for Dual wielding but you want to give it to us anyways?"

Infiltrators didn't ask for a hard counter to their cloak. SOE only listens so much, and there are people who do want it, though, as with almost anything in life, there are people on both sides.

4. "Dual wielding okay, but only ONE AT A TIME!!"

This I actually would like to see included with Akimbo Dual-Wielding. Wielding them one at a time is for any weapon, but two at a time limited to SMGs and pistols. Replacing your pistol with a second primary makes sense and would be useful in many applications. . .but my bias kicks in as I personally want to see Akimbo anyhow, but wielding any two primaries one at a time is something I have no opposition to.

5. "Your just saying all this to make Akimbo look good >.> loads of bias. . ."

Yes, there is a degree of bias in this all, partly due to speculation of balance and partly in interpretation of class roles. This IS whoever an argument FOR Akimbo and should be understood as such.

*PHEW* This wall of text comes to an end, but i would like to provide an example of how it could be balanced in, keep in mind that it is speculation and obviously would need refining, but just provides and idea for you all. (I lied, one more short wall!)

NS-MAS

The Nanite Systems Mechanized Assault Suit was designed after the success of MAX suits. The Idea was a slightly stripped down model to allow every soldier to have the enhanced combat ability. Unfortunately, design flaws and the weakness of the bonding equipment to hold the twin weapons made the suit incapable of wielding anything heavier than 2 SMGs or pistols. The Magnetic clamps that hold the weapons in place meant the removing of sights preventing ADS use. Due to the larger weight of SMGs requirung stronger electromagnetic pulses, the MAS clamps disturbed the firing mechanism in the weapons, requiring the SMGs to have their fire-rate reduced by almost 40% to remain stable while firing. The Jetpack also had little room for fuel. The design was changed to provide one small boost providing a double jump of sorts before requiring a short recharge. The suit did however provide a strong boost in mobility and aided in stabilizing the weapons in hipfire. The stabilization greatly reduced penalties to hipfire. It lacked the proper jetpack, but still maintained strong mobility while providing lethal firepower.

Lore is done. . .so what exactly does the above mean? Time to explain. . .

The NS-MAS takes up the Ability slot in a 5 tier progression. . .

Tier 1: Unlocks suit for use: Provides 5% increase to hipfire accuracy in all states (effectively a small hipfire boots that is more noticeable during sprinting,moving, and jumping) and allows the wearer to dual wield. Allows the user to use a midair "jump" once every 10 seconds.

Tier 2: Increases hipfire bonus to 10%. Increases movement speed by 5%. Reduces "double jump" cooldown by 1.25 seconds (down to 8.75s recharge)

Tier 3: Increase hipfire bonus to 15%. Increase movement speed by 7.5%. Reduce "double jump cooldown by 2.5 seconds (7.5s)

Tier 4: Increase hipfire bonus to 20%. Increase movement speed by 10%. Reduce "double jump" cooldown by 3.75 seconds (6.25s)

Tier 5: Increase hipfire bonus to 25%. Increase movement speed by 15%. Reduce "double jump" cooldown by 5 seconds (5s). Allows fire while sprinting.

So to breakdown this all, the hipfire bonus is in percents why? Well, to avoid giving pinpoint accuracy to hipfire weapons, The bonus to stationary crouch is small because the number is small already, however. . .the large COF while sprinting of jumping is boosted greatly! (EXAMPLE! 25% reduction of 1 is .25 while a 25% reduction of 4 is 1, big difference!) Pistols will receive a COF bloom reduction in addition to the COF bonus as they are already weaker than SMGs and will keep thier normal fire rate. . .maybe reduce them a little if they become a little too strong, but not everyone has an SMG so pistols need to be reasonable for use. Reload speed is decreased to account for the special reload process. "Double jump" is effectively a second jump. You know those long orange containers and tall plant holders in bio-labs? you can now jump on/over them with this. It does not replace the jets in versatility but provides a small benefit. Recharge prevents bunny-hop spam. Movement speed stacks with adrenaline pump (for those who care) to make it slightly more competitive of a choice. Let me know what you think of this wall of text! Please keep discussion open minded, civil, and intelligent, Thank You!

A light assault without a jetpack is just an engineer without a turret, infinite ammo, and mines.

The DPS increase they would have to give light assault to make me leave my jetpack behind would be gamebreaking.
If I am carrying dual SMG.. then the TTK should be half of a single one, GAMEBREAKING.
I will not leave my jetpack behind for a 10-20% increase, it has to be a 100% increase. I have 2, so it should double.

If they are going to try and sell me special dual wieldable SMG or pistols, or some other crap, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
I also will not buy a weapon twice like you have to do for maxes for my Light Assault, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

This is by far the dumbest idea they have come up with yet.

You want to let me carry a nighthawk and a T5-AMC and switch them on the fly, that be cool.
You want me running around with dual cyclones? Are you f'ing mad??

Good to know that our lack of tool and a general sense on unfinished-ness and *go **** yourselves, LAs!* treatment is all a part of a great plan.

In just two years, when LA revamp finally comes out, LA will ride unicorns and dual wield SMGs that shoot rainbows, and all MAXes and vehicle pilots will suddenly die of a heart attack, and the everyone will have icecream, and live happily ever after.

Can't believe I'm actually seeing someone defending Hibgby's version of the DW, which takes LA out of LA.

Edit: you can't see it because of the black forum background, but it says on the picture: "The fun has been doubled!".

This is perfect.

This whole "no jetpack, more firepower" concept doesn't make any sense. There are already 4 classes (MAX, Heavy, Engi, in theory even Infi with EMP+SMG combos) that have more firepower without a jetpack. If we wanted more firepower without a jetpack we'd play one of those.
The whole idea behind light assaults is mobility. Taking that away for more firepower is not only missing the target, it is missing the entire goddamn solar system it is in.

There are dozens of good suggestions what to do instead, made by a variety of regular LA players and forumers. Suggestions that build on the light assaults mobility, suggestions of alternate kinds of mobility, suggestions that would allow the light assault to use his mobility to benefit his team with tools, suggestions for tools that allow the LA to improve his teams mobility. (The link in my sig has incidentally examples of every kind in it *cough*)

They could pick any one or two of those suggestions made by any person of their choosing and we light assaults would have a happy party in here.
Instead they press on with their foolhardy idea that does not make any sense and goes against the whole philosophy of the class.

Well I wouldn't say "they press", seeing as there were no more official words on this topic and the revamp is unscheduled.

Even if you kept jumpjets and didn't have to sacrifice anything there is no reason to take dual SMGs over an extended mag Sweeper/Haymaker/Nova and a sidearm.

In both cases you're sacrificing range/accuracy/skill-ceiling for CQC multi-kill ability but a shotgun will still kill faster and more reliably within 10m (no significant hip-fire bloom) and a large mag shotgun and sidearm combo will let you make 6-7 kills without reloading compared to only 3-5.

I just went from wishing you would crash your car on the way home from work tonight and die, to wishing shards of broken glass would materialize themselves in your colon, which I guess means I am calming down a little (as I no longer wish for your demise) so I will try to respond with as little vitriol as possible.

This is exactly the kind of post we DON'T need.

Our unified voice (what is this divide you speak of, I only see you?) is driving back the horrible update that will allow these jokers to dust their hands and walk away, leaving our beloved class in a state of mediocrity for the rest of the foreseeable future. We have a chance of changing the future of Light Assault for the better and here you are creating an image for the devs that we are actually ok with Higby bending us over and shoving his dick in our collective ***es!

GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR!

I also feel that the light assault needs his jetpack. Dual wielding will be fun for me, as light assualt is my favorite class. I would be cool if it was an implant. Although that may be too OP. Maybe some kind of attachment like in COD? I would hate to see akimbo take over the LAs jetpack. Maybe we could sacrifice a utilitie slot. I am also wondering how he would reload. Maybe drop his magazines or something. Also please dont make us buy the same gun twice sony. please.

I don't think this would add much to the light assault and would just add something that would be incredibly hard to balance.

This is how it would it would be: As some previous posters said, the dual wielded weapons would have to be powerful in order for people to give up their Jet packs. Other wise players will soon realize and get the word out that they are highly situational aren't worth the trade. If they are powerful they would kill extremely fast and most likely be nerfed and cause much harm to everyone, even the users because it will probably become useless in the end as people will complain on the forums/those-other-places-the-devs-actually-listen-to and it will be a lose-lose situation that will hold back more important updates.

Personally I don't want a bunch of people running around in the game where it is mostly CQC if you want to capture a point and be spraying everywhere and twirling around and stuff like that. I just don't think that will fit into the game. I think many think the same way too.

Instead we should be trying to push something unique and something futuristic and Science Fiction like. Running around with dual wield weapons I admit would be cool but it just isn't what an organized futuristic soldier would be doing because they would have way more effective ways of doing stuff like that.
Maybe we could have arm-gun attached/integrated to the light assaults arm or something that would have superior hip-fire accuracy so they can shoot better while flying. Kind of like Samus in the Metroid games. You can also aim to fire in different areas in front of you without turning. Maybe the trade-off would be that you can't pilot vehicles.


To me the Dual wield guns will be a quick addition to the Light Assault class that may attract some but in the end it will do more harm than good.

I know it might not be cool when someone just shoots down your whole premise, but sorry dude...

No.
Just no.

It's not even the problem that dual wielding is hard to balance, it's just that it's not interesting. At all.

We've been asking for more depth, different things to do, something that creates a better connection between the LA and it's squadmates(or team mates or whatever), or at the very least a new jet pack.

And then they just go and say " Hey! You want something new? Here! Have ANOTHER GUN! ".

Cause it's not like we have been shooting people all this time, right?

So no, just no.

Please , no.

This is not hard to balance. You remove the ability to ADS and lower the accuracy. It's like being a max that can fly without armor. The gameplay will change significantly. LA will become a PoP-up and Spray instead of a Fly High and target where your enemy can't see you.

Seriously, how do you ADS with 2 guns?

Well, in a sense, giving up Jet Packs makes us closer to our team mates, since we lose all our mobility and have to stay on the ground just like all the other infantry

This thread is about Higby's dual wield, which makes us give up Jet Packs in order to dual wield.
It doesn't have to ADS, could be just aim, like what MCG does. It doesn't have sights, but you can still aim with it.

Well , I would ask you what's difference between shooting with one gun and shooting with two. Sure, you can't ADS, but it's the same idea: point and shoot.

But then, you sort of negated your own statement before you even made it.

(Apparentely, we wouldn't be able to use the jetpack while dual wielding.)
So, why would we ask for something that we can already do if we switch classes? Just because it doesn't cost resources?

You watch out, man. You try to be funny and people are gonna say you think this is a good idea.

I wasn't aware that you'd be giving up the jetpack. I personally think that is too much to give up for LA as it is their primary means of defense.

So IMO, it would be like being a max without armor or would be on par with having shotguns only with more distance. I think he's trying to add something without the blowback from the "nerf everything" community but LA would out DPS a heavy and a MAX (probably at the same time).

Simply increasing the default COF and removing ADS should be enough of a drawback and will still be enough of a trade off that it's worth taking. But I guess it's no different than running a pump shotgun in that configuration.

That my friend is the exact reasoning for balancing it. You sacrifice defense in the form of mobility, for offense. . .the best defense is a good offense, this idea is taking hold of that. It would still be different to going with a pump action as you have better range and firerate compared the the pump time and spread. People talk about how OP it is having a straight DPS and DPM increase, but then say that giving up the Jets are too much? Doesn't seem to be that OP then. Not trying to be offensive by that, but arguing those two points is rather contradictory.

Actually it would in terms of the light assault. You are no longer using mobility, rather, you are relying on superior firepower to win fights. The way you approach the fight and shoot is the same for any gun wielder, how you approach the style is what is different. With jets, you can position yourself to have an advantage so that even a botched kill can be fixed or escaped from. with DW, you rely less on positioning and more on your guns, facing normal troop limitations. Pre-firing corners, pinning down doors, and killing whatever they can before the have to reload and seek safety. Playing with jets, you have no weakness in reload, yeah you may have 3-4 seconds if you empty your mag, but you have your jets to stay safe, while DW stays dangerous longer, but is more vulnerable due to a longer reload time. It is different. But making a comparison from shooting one gun to shooting two doesn't play out very much how the LA plays.

Because it is still different to the MAX. The LA cannot take the hits a max can, cannot engage AI and AA like a Max can. The MAX cannot be healed by medics, which appear to be more frequent in my experience than engineers. The MAX is slower, larger, and makes more noise, instantly giving its position away. The MAX also is made more of a target due to the above. The LA can do things the MAX cant and vice versa. Not costing resources helps as well.

I KNEW HE LOVED IT! (I don't mind that he doesn't like it, I just don't want to see DW nipped in the bud before we even see how they planned to do it.)

Harsh, but understandable. The internet is such a cold place where differing opinions are stomped upon.

Odd, of the randoms I have talked to in game, half of them seem to like it while the other half don't, perhaps just the crowds I hang with? I'm sorry that the idea of DW disagrees completely with you, but the way I see it is an optional playstyle change, its not like jets are being removed or that this is the ONLY thing they are working on. An image that "we"? Nay, I am fully just one man (getting technical, just a "kid"), however I greatly enjoyed the thought of DW and did not want to see the idea of it fully and completely trashed. On that note, you and I will regretfully have to agree to disagree on the nature of DW for LA. I wish you well.

Exactly. How do they fix the problem? They ignore the problem.

It really feels like PS2 should've spent 2-3 more years in development. Not sure if the publisher rushed the release, or the developers worked too slowly, but the fact that PS2 is still a beta of a bad team deathmatch is indisputable.

So I can't say I feel for the devs when they can't deal with LA revamp because all of their attention has to be directed to adding key features like continental lattice that should've been a part of the game from the start.

Oh, my post was serious in its message (a grain of truth) but facetious in its intensity (in every jest)

I don't hope you **** glass, but the idea is bad simply because, while an optional feature, the devs will use it as an excuse to not work on the original LA.

I know u think they can work on more than one thing, and they can, but they wont, this is SOE.

Most likely the case, but I like to remain optimistic if only out of preference to the opposite. Like the infiltrator buff. . .that gave them a direct counter. . .