what are the plans for the enchanter classes?

Phury wrote:

Some valid points.
Being one of the coercers from the very start when we sucked bad and now that we have so much more control. I never cared for the DPS role but since we got it . Well I enjoyed it. I do not feel I was nerfed. I do feel like we get a bit of the short end, as nothing new was added to mez etc in a raid and I just want more control. Sever Hate and the like really do not go far enough. In some cases we have little time to even use it. If we did too much DPS in the past that is fair. However give us more control over the fight. That does seem to be the orginal concept of an Enchanter.
Imbuement was also a major part of the old school enchanter types thats something I would enjoy seeing again. As buffs extra Damage procs etc.
That all said I am not un happy and will continue to play my coercer. It does remain my favorite class.

I'm glad you guys got something because illies got jack. now, no matter how much effort I put in, I can't make a difference. if I bust my tail trying to dps I might get as high as 10th. if I cast temps and watch tv I still come in 13 or so. who cares? on power drain mobs, I can't keep my group full. I haven't noticed the coercers having any problems but both our illy groups seem to be struggling for power.

minmaxxing to get the most out of the class was what made the game rewarding for me. now, the difference between a great illy and a afk illy is barely noticable. it's pretty lame that they have to **** us with crit. the whole reason we do so much dps is PROCs. with POM or POTM we cast at 1000mph at get a ton of dps from those procs. sorcs may get 7 spells off in the 20 seconds of POM where we get 30 or more. I wear out mice clicking those buttons so much. a sorc can get a drink while manaburn is casting. giving us a broken toy to play with while the other kids get shiny new ones is BS. I spent countless hours with training dummies and calculators trying to come up with the best gear/procs/casting orders. now, someone with 40 hours total playtime can beat me on the parse just because the devs want it that way.

after tonights raid where I was doing everything I could and still couldn't keep power or get above 10th on a parse, I gave away masters and plat. I'm sick of these jerks. they don't know how to fix anything without breaking something else. the worst part is they don't have the stones to post and own up to it.

Phury wrote:

And what about non-raiders?

Ilsa's Barrier Fight

Do you guys enjoy this fight? Furies give me Salve so I can help group cure/heal the trauma. I don't know about you but I find it exhilarating to cast Salve and as soon as the trauma hits, gone. Cured their butts like it was nothing. Stuff like this keeps me going. Maybe because I just enjoy playing "video games"

Eunhye@Antonia Bayle wrote:

this made me LOL. I'm glad you found a use for us. we are the new salve targets. wait... who raids with a fury?
we raided with 18 last night. it's the first time we haven't had a full raid since before TSO. had 1 coercer and 1 illy. in TSO we usually had 6 chanters with more available if we needed them. the dps group was a sorc, necro, conji, troub, inq. they had 0 issues with power until we got to mobs with a power drain. I also noticed the conji really putting up nice numbers with everyone's gear getting pretty equal. I'm still full TSO. I haven't rolled on any raid gear since I am leaving.

I enjoy playing video games too. if you are playing a racing game do you look through the cars for a slow one with nice mileage?

007djdeadly wrote:

To be honest, the non-raiding coercer has a fraction to complain about than the raiding coercer. But either way, all of these apply to groups as well. In group settings, your stuns and mezzes become quite important, and they did add Uninterruptible actions which helps you land spells as opposed to being interrupted. Root is still worthless, but most mobs are dead long before they even get to you if stuns are used.
The more I am raiding in SF, the less I see to complain about the coercer class. The gear in SF is a total mess, but the class itself is still pumping out heavy dps, providing solid mana recovery, and is still a pivotal player in hate management in group and raids.

"Heavy DPS" ?!?!!?
LOL.
Please define "Heavy DPS" so we can all have a nice little laugh.
Back in January of 2009, I was parsing 13k with my Illusionist - about equal to our Summoners. The Assassins and Wizards in our raid were parsing 17-20k. It felt pretty balanced to me.
Fast forward to March of 2010. I've gained 10 levels, 50 AA's and a vast amount of high end raid gear. I'm now pushing hard to parse 11k. The Assassins and Wizards in our raid are parsing 25-30k, and in AE fights, our Conjuror is parsing 30-50k.
This is progress?
Yikes.

Banditman wrote:

Would you prefer "Moderate" DPS? Is that a better word? We are a utility class and not supposed to be shoulder to shoulder with the Assassins and Wizards. At least we out parse the bards (at least I hope you do).

Parsing 30% less is "neck in neck"? On what planet?
I'd be happy parsing 30% less than Assassins and Wizards now. That sounds about right to me.
(That'd be about 19k btw)

Luminare@Guk wrote:

I'm 100% sure that not 1 enchanter in this thread said we should parse the same as sorcs and preds. reading comprehension ftw?

I am now parsing with the dirges and also an inq in the scout group that gets TC from the other illy. so, in our raids, the assassin is way out in front with 22-23k zw. ranger, sorc, conji are all fighting for 2-4 with none having a clear advantage. necro, swash, brig, SK, and Guard round out the top 9. next are the 2 coercers followed by a mix of illies, dirges, and the inq. the troub is usually in the bottom of this group.

if I use your logic, why are the tanks parsing as t2 dps? why is a healer doing 10-12k? I've seen the conji in the #1 spot in a lot of fights even though the sorc has better gear. your logic sucks. enchanters should be doing 65-75% of t1 dps. that is the way it was after the proc nerfs. that is the way it would be now if they would give us the same crit mods.

I say give us the same crit mods as every other mage and if YOU don't want to dps....... dont. a second tick back on our myth buff wouldn't hurt anything either.

at least that would make me keep paying for my account.

dlove183 wrote:

Troll alert. Not worth my time.

troll alert? are you serious? thats your defense for not reading a thread and posting stupidity in it?

if you are topping parses, post them. otherwise reach in the fridge and get yourself a nice tall bottle of S.T. EF U

I will bite. Here is a raid parse (incomplete) from a couple nights ago - this is an example. I believe we had 2.5 groups in this raid as a result the parse is a fair bit low but reasonably scaled to the players. The differences I see from a typical parse is our Conjy is usually at the very top of the parse, and our dirges are usually above me in the parse. He was probably resing folks this fight, the conjy might have died. Not sure. What is startling is the lock is doing 14% of the damage and I am doing 7%. Where I used to produce 80% of the damage of a wizard or lock, I am now effectively doing 50%. I want to point out where a lot of illusionists are purposely NOT complaining about the dps nerf, I am. I would like to see my scale come back to 80% of T1 dps where we were. In addition I would like to see one more power proc added back to my mythical. Everything goes along fine until you are completely power drained - then its very difficult to get everyone full again. One more proc will not eliminate that pain, but would definitely help. As for self-buff TC? It seems to be the fair thing to do.
My asks from SOE (which will go ignored because SOE and god hate illusionists)
-Add one more power proc back to our mythical
-Put us back to 80% of T1 dps
-Either allow us to put TC on ourselves, or take away the ability to self-buff BC/UT.
Wyvernlord Tuluun: DAMAGE --- 27924164 over 02:50 --- 164260
(14%) Lock: 24560
(12%) Wizard: 20705
(11%) Conjy: 18335
(10%) SK: 17352
(9%) Brig: 14809
(7%) Brig: 12611
(7%) Me (illy): 12281
(6%) Coercer: 10275
(5%) Dirge: 8690
(5%) Pally: 8531
(5%) Troub: 8496

Luminare@Guk wrote:

Chock@Unrest wrote:

Yah .. but your Conjy is OP ;P
That parse is what I would expect given the current state of things. This will get WORSE in the coming months as people get fully mastered and gear up more. Peronsally I am running in top 3-4 of my guilds parse (often), but that has more to do with more effort on my part (gear and so on). I am parsing about the same as your coercer.
The problem isnt that 20% crit bonus other mages get, it is the mechanics differents between the classes and Base damage numbers on spells. If you are pulling 12k rightnow, that would be ~7500 before crits. If you had a 1.5 base crit that would mean you would have done 13.5k.
The only thing we use to have going for us was our abilities to leverage Procs due to the insane amount of spells we cast. Since Procs have been nerfed to hell and back, we have no advantage at all. To bring enchanters more inline DPS wise, we would need to have our basic spell damage numbers increase slightly.

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

This is precisely the issue. Illy spells simply don't hit that hard, yes we can recast them quickly but overall it doesnt compare in basic outgoing damage to almost every other mage.

All the new crit bonus/recast/casting/ability/base components on the new SF gear that is having a massive effect for every other mage is having very minimal effect on the illy class. This is simply because our spells hit for so little that even MASSIVE amounts of crit bonus/base is having very little effect.

Whereas as a wizzy a 5% increase on a 25k hit is having a massive difference, then throw in all the new recast/casting speed gear that is available and you have the reason why you are seeing illys struggle to even come close to 80% of their damage.

As a illy I dont need any casting speed gear we cast fast enough as it is and a .001 % increase in relative terms is going to have no effect on my parse. Again though for other classes with longer innate longer cast times then all the recast/casting speed stuff makes a massive difference.
I don't see SOE fixing anything soon honestly. In a ideal world they would increase the core damage of the illy spells to even things out but thats not going to happen. They could also think about removing caps on casting/recast but that would cause more issues than it would solve, the amount of spamming a illy would have to do with spells would be silly.

GloveSave72 wrote:

I have noticed that potency has helped my parse more than any other stat. However my parse will likely always remain 50% relational to mages as they gain potency as well. Its nice to be 70% of mage dps rather than 50% however short the duration. Tbh, I do not care how they fix chanters, they just need to be addressed. I am restating my asks in case there are any questions:
1. Add one more power proc back to our mythical/mythical buff.
2. Put us back to 80% of mage dps (either make our spells hit harder, aa line for potency, I don't care how they go about it).
3. Allow us to self-buff TC, or remove bard self-buff of BC/UT. If they are going to treat us like bards, treat us all equally.
This is my mantra.

I've come to realize that the mechanics of this expansion are just flying directly in the face of Enchanters.
The problems are too numerous to even get into without a Dev agreeing to look at it honestly. I am 10 levels, 50 AA's and a ton of gear further along than I was one year ago, yet in the same group with the same buffs, I parse a lot less.
Glad I chose to switch to another class. I only play my chanter now when we absolutely cannot find anyone else to fill the power regen role.

GloveSave72 wrote:

To add salt to injury, crit bonus and potency, the two modifications that really help enchanters, have very expensive item budget compared to casting speed, spell modifications. Sorcerers get very good use from casting speed and spell modification. Enchanters in raiding guilds have to search for those items with potency/crit bonus while sorcerers can just grab any items and their dps will get huge improvement.
It is just wrong that enchanters only benefit from 2 very expensive components while all other mages can benefit from 4 or 5 components. Before, enchanters compensated this shortage from proc items, now proc items cannot crit, don't get any benefit from potency/crit bonus. We are gonna have even tougher times as people get better geard.

Banditman wrote:

Absolutely. Sorcerers now parse 25k, me, 10k if I am lucky. The sorcerer is doing 150% more dps than another mage class!
I have played pretty much all MMO games, and have never seen such huge dps disparty between different mage/dps.
I hate to drag WoW in but since I have quite extensive raiding experience and knowledge in WoW, I will offer brief comparison. In WoW, a top dps class, mage (simiar to wizzard), is intended to only do 5-10% more dps than a shaman/paladin/druid that focus on dps/buff while other dps classes fill in between. If said mage or warlock does 20% more dps, you bet the developers will nerf them. Players in WoW feel this is the best solution even though shaman/paladin/druid can respec to healing roles easily.
Since in EQ2, healers don't really dps in raid, enchanters and bards can be comparable to dps shaman/paladin/druids that dps buff in WoW, idealy, enchanters should do about 10-20 less dps than sorcerers. Plus, unlike shaman/druid/paladin, we cannot change to healers; we are of of the MAGE classes.
The claim that enchanters were oped because raids need them due to their buffs/dps is completely unfounded and refuted in this expansion. The enchanters are doing garbage dps now, but they are needed more than ever with all those power drain debuffs. Even if enchanters' dps is increased, raids will not increase enchanter's slots since every group already needs an enchanter. Similarly, even if sorcerers are not doing, say, 20%, more dps than enchanters, raids still will invite sorcerers. Who else are they gonna fill out the mage group? 2 enchanters to waste spots and waste some buffs?