It seems to me that, in addition to the issue of rare loam availability, some of this discussion has become more of a confrontation between two ideologies. There is a seeming majority who want crafting to be happily accessible to any who want to play, and a more hardcore group that wants crafting to require a greater effort, by multiple crafters, to make something truly valued. At first, it was easy for me to dismiss Jalathan as an old curmudgeon who wanted everything hard just because he had it hard growing up, darnit! I really like the changes that have happened to crafting over the years, as it makes my necessities more easily obtainable. His negative slant of seeming determined to hate anything that wasn't the old system reinforced that perception. Then, when someone mentioned raiding it reminded me of the neverending "raiding vs. play: which is best" feud, to which my answer has always been "do what you enjoy, they're both available". My mind wandered further, noting that there really wasn't a 'raiding' equivalent for crafting, which really seemed what Jalathan might be after. After all that, I realized that some of my favorite crafting experiences were also some of the more challenging ones: crafting in the Nest with skill well below the listed level; trying to figure out the commission system at the forge in SoS so I could help a guildie; doing commission glide boots for friends, and so on. I've since come to find myself much more sympathetic to Jalathan's cause, or at least my perception of it. At this point, crafting is mostly a single incarnation, and therefore mostly(with a few exceptions) has a single difficulty level, which is set towards accessibility(ease) to please the greatest number of players. Given a monolithic crafting system, I agree with where the difficulty is currently set. Unfortunately, this leaves little challenge for the achievers, the "raiders" of crafting, if you will. Seeing how, on the adventuring side, raiding is essentially a layer of content above and beyond the basic solo and heroic content, it seems as though an additional "elite" form of crafting would greatly please some of the more hardcore folks here, without taking away the great content we currently have. Tinkering and transmuting, and some of the great craft oriented questing that has gone in recently are great steps in the direction of "elite" crafting, but I think it would be neat if things could go further. Either as additional secondary trades, or perhaps just as looted or faction or quest obtained recipes for standard trades, there could be special things that could be made with great difficulty, requiring multiple crafters to interact, with some true risk along the way. A simplistic example might be some doohickey that is a single use item useful for raiding, that one crafter makes the base item, then various other crafters have the ability to upgrade or imbue the item. Though the end product would require itemization for balance, the mechanics for crafting with a crafted ingredient are, at least, already in place. While I disagree about the necessity of removing the current accessible system we have now (it rocks!), I would love for more challenges and maybe some small interdependent, multiple combine things to someday find their way into the game. On topic, as a non-fighter/non-scout provisioner, I think rare loams instead of roots on bushes is a fabulous idea, and I also think that all-scholar ink making, to allow spell raws to be interchangeable is a fine idea.
The main problem I had with the old system is that there were just too many subcombines needed to reach the end product. So much so, that getting all of the items you needed to make your end product from the broker was practically impossible, which forced a lot of people to create about 5 alts just to be able to make 1 end product. The interim system was even worse - we could make the subcombines ourselves but still needed to create about 25 products to get to the final end product we wanted. It took away the community aspect, while maintaining the endless slog. Personally, what I would like to see is for a small amount of interdependency to be brought back. Not a huge amount, but, for example, in Dark Age of Camelot, to make a trophy, you needed an alchemist and a spellcrafter. That was no big deal. I do, however, think that 'regular' crafted items should NOT need and interdependency or subcombines. A possible idea might be that the glowing materials for imbuing might need to be processed first, possibly something that any scholar class should be able to do. This way, crafters can create a perfectly acceptable piece of equipment on their own - or they can combine their efforts with another to make an item just a little bit better.
Why cant we just make Ore metal become scout spell ingredient instead? t8 Loam = fighter, Incarnadine = Scout.. or the other way around. You'd have to redo ingredients to either Jeweler or Alchemist.. but thats a small trade off for making spells fair for all classes.
Thud@Befallen wrote: Bingo, someone finally gets it. Thank you. I'm not out there to make everyone's life miserable because I had it hard, I'm trying to return some level of challege and effort to crafting. Right now, that is sorely lacking for someone like me who was drawn into the game because he/she enjoyed the more hardcore style of crafting. I'd be perfectly content if I only made a dozen items a month, if those items were useful and desirable. I'd be perfectly content it if took an hour (or more) and a group of crafters to make it (or even a raid of crafters). Just give us some bloody challenge not this pathetic and annoying version of Wak-a-mole.
back on topic here now... The simple response isn't to change the drop rates, but just have it so we can use Ore, Loam, gems and soft metals as our spell component regardless of class (much like it used to be when you could use Ore, Gems or Soft metals to make the ink). Heck, you could even drop loam off of the drop table and just use Ore, Gems and Soft Metals. That would fix the supply problem, even out the prices of the materials (because they'd have to compete with each other) and no one class would be out in the cold to get their AD3s.
More and more I am liking the ink idea.. A single ink recipe that would take any of the rares already needed to make spells in order to make the ink. And in turn the ink is used to make the spell. Seems simple to me... and this would allow every class a more equal opportunity to acquire their adept 3's. I still like my idea though, and would like to see it considered.(which I mentioned twice now and has been lost both times in the chatter )
Daine@Everfrost wrote: With ROK resist gear is not a issue i have more than enough resist gear from raiding t7 and from questing in t8 to NOT need any player made resist gear. The only player made jewelery that has any demand is the player made melee rings and i have only seen 1 looted ring i would take one of my player made off for and that comes from throne room LOL! it took me 27 loams (roughly over 200 plat not counting the fuel cost yes i did this in the first week of rok so they were more expensive) to do all my t8 ca's and 2 tynnysium<sp> to have my rings made. Iam not a crafter i chime in here on this tread as a regular player that dispises the fact that i have to share my rare with another group of classes. making the rares i need much higher in cost. I do have a lvl 80 alch b/c i like to be self sufficent in making my own posions and i dont sell them on the broker they are for just myself. Masters for this teir will never be as readly avavable as they were in kos and eof due to the fact that they are not easy farmable by a single player be it soloing or boxing. I farmed most of my own masters for t7. i 3 box and there was only 2 areas i could not farm nizara and castle mistmoore. that just is not going to happen in rok! so your point about masters is pointless.
DominoDev wrote: I agree with both of Jalathan and Domino to a certain point...however, bringing back interdependancy is not the answer. It was a flawed system and I was happy when they did away with it. Crafted product does not need to have it, and it does not even need to have subs. This isn't Sims or Second Life so to have that type of immersion I would suggest a different game to play other than EQ2. I agree with Jalathan that the direction crafting has taken is not good. Not because more players have been brought in to it though. But because of the dependancy crafters have on the adventurer and the market/economy. One of the biggest issues I've seen is that as an Adventurer you really do not need much from a crafter. There are so many quests, loot drops, and easily attainable gear in-game that do not require a player to ever need a crafter for anything other than maybe spell upgrades. This is the issue with major issued with crafting. Crafters need adventurers, but adventurers do not need crafters. The product the majority of crafters produce do not turn as much value on the market. The reason being is looted 'treasured' items are much easier to come by, provide better stats (for the most part), resists and cost a lot less to purchase on the broker. Even 'legendary' drops seem to much easier to obtain, and saves the adventurer the obscene amount of plat a lot of the Mastercrafted goes for. Rares cost more than what a crafters product is worth. Therefor you have to go harvest and decrease the amount you spend on rares on the broker so you can possibly turn a profit. Loams on the other hand...make Adept 3's which people WILL pay for because those are more easily attanaible than Master 1's. A player will have to pick and choose just as Domino has said, however...I can gaurantee a player will end up using Treasured instead of Mastercrafted, because of costs. Another issue is that Handcrafted yields little in profitable rewards any more. Pre-KoS Handcrafted was still looked at as quality equipment. In fact...I remember when I bought tier 4 imbued handcrafted rings for 40 gold a piece and that was considered great gear. If some one were to sell those for that price now...people would just laugh and find them a couple nice treasured rings. The demand for ALL crafted products is lacking, therefor makes crafting look more like an after thought rather than an alternative option to adventuring. If there is no demand for all crafted products (i.e. Handcrafted and Mastercrafted) then whats the point of having certain crafters such as Armorsmiths or Weaponsmiths...even Woodworkers! Sure...some turn a decent profit, but it's pretty much gauranteed the product being sold is NOT handcrafted. So...I agree a player needs to have the ability to choose, and make a choice between that Adept 3 or that new equipment as you come in to a new tier but the options are limited when it comes to crafted products. Handcrafted on the broker is inherently junk and may yield 5-10 gold if your lucky, Mastercrafted is severely over-priced more often than not, so look to spend upwards to a plat or more at higher tiers. Treasured is right around in the middle. Ranging from a few gold (depending on drop rate) to a couple plat, and inherently offer better stats than the Mastercrafted. This doesn't only apply to gear, but to spells as well. Sure you may go for an App 4 if no other upgrade is available, but for the most part a player will choose to buy that Adept 1 and rely on their AA line Enhancement to upgrade that skill till the Adept 3 is a bit more affordable. In all, I'd have to say...we need a State of Tradeskills address Domino. What is your short term and long term goal for the crafting community, the current system in place, and how you plan to try and balance the different professions as well as itemization issues between crafted and looted/quested rewards. Adding new recipes isn't the answer, and quite honestly tired of hearing about new furniture or food/drink. Crafters do not 'need' more recipes of a re-hashed product to make them fruitful or desirable. It all revolves around the supply and demand a crafter should be able to give to the rest of the community. Handcrafted as it stands now, is more or less junk or vendor trash...so why even have it? It's just a waste of resources and filler for leveling... Adornments use a ton of resources and again over-priced materials which cause the 'small' boosts from these to be severely ver-priced on the broker... Mastercrafted rares are not so easy to come by since certain tiers limit the placement of materials to just a couple areas and therefore become overcrowded with players harvesting for the same material. Then put it on the broker for a value that is much higher than the final product will end up yielding, but the crafter is forced to charge more than what he payed for the rare to make his money back... Consumables, there just simply not spread out to enough professions which make those professions without or with little consumable product least likely to be played... Basically the crafting process has been made easy, as well as harvesting has been made easy, but because of the easily attainable loot drops that yield better rewards the demand for crafted product has suffered because of it. Right now...there is no balance between crafted and looted/quested rewards and until something is done to make ALL crafted product as desirable as treasured/legendary loot rewards. Crafting as a whole will suffer, no matter how many recipes you throw at us...it's still just slapping a band-aid on festering wound. Before anything else can be done with crafting to improve it's role within the community...the itemization of crafted vs looted/quested needs to be addressed. Now...I will say...rare material should be 'made' from existing basic raw materials and not harvested... Example: Rare Ore Recipe = Common Ore x 50 Imbue Material (i.e. Smoldering Material) x 10 Infuse Solvent (vendor purchased) x 1 If you remove the rares from nodes and make questable recipes to make rare material instead, it'll limit the price gouging you find on the broker of crafted products plus limits the farmer bots profits. The recipe can be set up just like the Fallen Dynasty quests where you receive a specific quest based on profession. So if your a Tailor, you would get the quests that would give the recipe for rare root and leather, a weaponmsith rare ore, jeweler rare soft metal and loam...etc etc etc. That adds extra quests 'per' tier for every craft. However this idea only solves part of the problem with crafting as a whole... Anyways...thats my 2 cp...
I agree with one of the posters that said add a new rare to the fish nodes. You could even call it an ink sac as some aquatic animals use an ink in defensive way. That way every node would have a rare on it.
Rashaak wrote: I kinda like that. It would make the master crafted more affordable (thus more in place in it's tiering) and something you'd have to work for. 50 may be too low, but that is something that can be bantered back and forth until an acceptable level is found. It would also provide a reasonable method to work towards. With this, I know that effort will equal reward instead of a possible unless the RNG really hates/loves me. Though we can even take it a step further. Make it so you can blend different tiers together to get different materials. It is a 'sorta' sub system but at the material level. I think I need to work on this and put together a new post around it
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Well...as I said in my post, this isn't Sim's ON-line or Second Life....lets just keep it simple. I don't think it would be possible to incorporate a 'sub' system. All this idea was...was a way to possibly balance out the high costs of rare material's on the broker, limit the 'RNG hates me' line, and at least put Mastercrafted in a price range that can compete with the Treasured. Removing rare harvests from nodes and making them a questable recipe is a good way to go, because your not taking content away, but adding more content by giving crafters more quests to do. Another idea would be to bring back Factions within the Tradeskill societies and make writs to harvest material in the overland zone. It would work just like some of the adventure quests that send you after mushrooms or whatever. You can see the nodes in the overland zones, but can't harvest them unless you have a quest from the tradeskill society. When you return and give the material to Society you gain coin and tradeskill exp + the material you just gathered gets put into a 'bank' of sorts and becomes purchasable from a vendor within the society. So crafters would be completely reliant on each other to keep their raw material stores high. For Example: Namby Pamby in the Dark Bargainers needs: 50 (tier X) roots 50 (tier X) ore) 50 (tier x) loam 50 (tier x) wood You return and give those materials to Namby Pamby and now have 50 roots, ore, wood and loam ready to be purchased from the vendor by anyone. Gaining faction by doing these quests lower overall costs of material purchased from the Tradeskill Society Vendor... With this idea...you create a money sink, more quests for crafters, decreases farmer bots, and decreases raw material clutter on brokers....
Rashaak wrote: This would just drive up the price of the common harvests as all crafters would do the quests for the recipes to get the stuff that sales. This in my opinion would more than likely make Mastercrafted items cost more not less than they currently do as it takes rare plus common harvestables to make Mastercrafted. So what your suggesting is a system where it takes all the common harvestables plus lets say another 500 raws for the rares to make a set of tailored goods yes this is including hex dolls and cloaks. I like to harvest as well as the next guy but thats alot of materials needed in order to make a set of Mastercrafted. Oh wait I forgot the part where it takes 10 materials to make an imbue item so lets see that would bring it up to another 40 raws in order to imbue items. In closing lets agree to disagree
Here Rashaak, taking your idea and running with it to not only get into the improvement on rares but also to expand crafting as well. Based around the above post by Rashaak, I got to thinking. People are wanting a way to 1 make crafters a bit less dependant upon adventurers, generate gear that is a bit better and add to the crafter content without the addition of major subs and/or interdependency. So why not create a method of generating a trivial amount of subs that wouldn't impact the current system of crafting at all. Only change where the materials can come from. Create a series of recipes that create the material itself from raw harvests. This would eliminate the risk of having to tell someone that they just forgot how to do something, but this would add more things to learn. Basically the concept would be based around creating rares instead of harvesting them. In fact, I'd propose we change the terminology and create 4 tiers of materials. Low Quality, Average Quality, High Quality, Superior Quality. You could take 50 of a low quality and make it average (weeding out the bad). You could take 5 average qualities and make a high quality. You could take 5 high and make a superior. Each step would take a special material to move up to. The move from low to average is vendor bought, the one from average to high is heroic mob dropped (body loot/wood box) and the one from high to superior is raid dropped (body loot/metal box). This would give us 4 quality levels (trash, treasured, legendary and fabled) to make stuff from with the two higher forms needing external help to facilitate (thus allowing the itemization inclusion). Use the same models as we have now for armors. For the two new levels, make them lvl x7 and x9 for the tier and start them in the teens (not enough heroics in the sub teens to matter really). Now, crafters don't just get these recipes to do this, they have to earn them and each tier higher should require more effort. The rewards for these quests should be the entire tier of books (for that material) and the recipe for the higher quality materials they will need (e.g., the rare types they'd use now). Ok, so that leaves us with handcrafted, master crafted, legend crafted and fable crafted possibilities. Doesn't take any knowledge away from anyone that they currently have. Adds in some more content for all crafters (the infusions would be tradeable as would the legendary and fabled gear). The itemization would look something like this. Handcrafted = Attunable < MC < treasured < LC < Legendary < FC < fabled. Really, the FC would be the gear that those who want to raid would get to get into raiding. It wouldn't quite be adventure fabled quality but would be solid enough to raid in without being at a major disadvantage. LC would be for those who wish to group and MC would be for the soloers. Handcrafted would remain where it is for writ purposes and leveling (solo trash mobs). The breakdown of the recipes (based upon common raws needed) would be Low - Basic Harvest (no conversion) Average - 50 low harvests + infusion High - 250 low harvests (5 average) + legendary infusion Superior - 1250 low harvests (25 average, 5 high) + fabled infusion Its still rough in idea, but I think there may be something to it.
Rustymage@Butcherblock wrote: and the problem with driving up the cost of 2c commons would be? How many raws would you have harvested to get a shot at that rare in the first place? Right now, the cost of a rare loam under this method would be a whole whopping 100c, yes 1s. Yes, of course we'd want the prices driving up for commons, that is partially the point of this. Getting commons upto probably a couple silver a piece would probably be a good thing to be honest.
I am of the opinion that not all problems need to have a solution. Some imbalances between rares, drop rates and generaly resources for crafting are indeed there. Hardly however i see this as a problem. The fact that contrary to the real world the the gods of Norrath are somewhat more accessible shouldn't be overused. Those inbalances and dealing with them (in game) in the best way is in fact the game. I would only worry if they were game breaking which is not the case.
Driving up the price of roots take succulent for example on Butcherblock are at 46 silver each on the broker is a good thing in your opinion. If they are at that price now without the system your suggesting, what would they cost after this system was implemented.
Rustymage@Butcherblock wrote: Actually I posted another idea that could limit any price hike of common materials as well......i'd say just scroll up but..meh...not biggy for me to copy it and repost Another idea would be to bring back Factions within the Tradeskill societies and make writs to harvest material in the overland zone. It would work just like some of the adventure quests that send you after mushrooms or whatever. You can see the nodes in the overland zones, but can't harvest them unless you have a quest from the tradeskill society. When you return and give the material to Society you gain coin and tradeskill exp + the material you just gathered gets put into a 'bank' of sorts and becomes purchasable from a vendor within the society. So crafters would be completely reliant on each other to keep their raw material stores high. For Example: Namby Pamby in the Dark Bargainers needs: 50 (tier X) roots 50 (tier X) ore) 50 (tier x) loam 50 (tier x) wood You return and give those materials to Namby Pamby and now have 50 roots, ore, wood and loam ready to be purchased from the vendor by anyone. Gaining faction by doing these quests lower overall costs of material purchased from the Tradeskill Society Vendor... With this idea...you create a money sink, more quests for crafters, decreases farmer bots, and decreases raw material clutter on brokers....
even then, you are talking a rare that would only cost 23g which is more than reasonable. I figure that if you say a rare should be worth its tier x5 gold. That would make a t6 rare worth 30 gold and the commons worth 60s. That would seem consistant with the values back at launch when you could get 12s a harvest for society writs for t2 raws. So, yes, I think going as high as 60 silver (when you can make the rares for 30g) for a t6 common is a good thing. So the following table would be a loose guide T1 rare should be around 5g, the commons around 10s T2 rare should be around 10g, the commons around 20s T3 rare should be around 15g, the commons around 30s T4 rare should be around 20g, the commons around 40s T5 rare should be around 25g, the commons around 50s T6 rares should be around 30g, the commons around 60s T7 rares should be around 35g, the commons around 70s T8 rares should be around 40g, the commons around 80s I think (with that system in place) that would be fair prices. You have to remember, with a system like this, you would get more out of the raws you didn't use too. Right now as a tailor, you use some of the more expensive while you have to either destroy the gems/soft metals and woods. If others could turn those into rares to be used, there would be an improved market for those and the value of those would help to offset the cost of yours.
