I think most of us that watch the various markets would agree that loam is more expensive than the other spell rares. I also think that most of us would agree that either stone or soft metal is generally more expensive in each tier than the other (depending on the tier). I also think that in general one of the 3 materials gets to a saturation point before the others and starts to drop in price significantly before the others. I think that if the ink recipes were to be brought back and all spell recipes could use either the raw or the ink it would help even the playing field. Make the ink use as much fuel as making the spell would, so you essentially double the cost of the finished spell. Give the ink recipes to all scholars. This way your not creating an unfair market or perceived interdependency. There shouldn't be any reason to see ink on the market. If this was followed less people would harvest hard metal nodes, the prices of hard metal wouldn't be depressed by a huge surplus, and loam would be slightly cheaper than the other two possible spell raws due to the slightly higher demand due to jewelery.
I like the idea that all 3 current spell rares (loam, gem and soft metal) could be used for all AdeptIII spells/CA's. It would definitely make it equal fair for all classes to gain those spells. I also like this idea much better than to use another rare for fighter or scout spells (like the suggested hard metal). I hope we could even just make it this way for rare spells and keep the current system for apprentice spells.
I think a great opportunity was missed to just make all adept 3's require loams. The whole reason we switched over to the scheme we have was to allow jeweler's and other classes the opportunity to use rares at non-inflated prices.The price of loams puzzles me; they have fewer uses than other rares and are used by classes that value auto-attack and other damage sources as much as their CA's. If we were to go back to inks though, what would be the point of loams?If they stick around as ink ingredients, they'd be like hitting the jackpot since they would be cheaper that the other two rares and would create an unfair price pressure on inks made from soft metals and stones. If there was no previous ink example to draw from, what would your suggestion have been?
Deson wrote: The price of loam seems rather expected to me, 12 subclasses each of which has about 25 spells to upgrade, versus 6 subclasses each of which has another 25 or so spells to upgrade and a few jewelery slots. I did a demand side analysis of expected rare demand about two weeks after launch, in a thread where I was also advocating for ink recipes ( http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...98� ). In it I summed the usages of rares under two different models, one where people are using MC armor heavily and a second where that isn't the case. Clearly that model is incomplete when attempting to model the market as a whole, since there would be additional supply side pressure from the inflated value of the loams; my model assumes serverwide harvests for each node are equal, instead of people focusing on the ore nodes due ot the high value loams, for example. In the other thread I advocated creating an ink recipe that costs around 25g, so that there would be something of an incentive of using the 'proper' spell rare - there is a pressure valve created for keeping the differing rares at around the same price, but there is still the incentive I talked about earlier. If I were designing the system from scratch, however, I would have scrapped loams instead placing a generic jewelry yielding raw with the ore nodes, and then designating the current soft metal nodes as spell rare nodes. I think it is a really tall request to attempt to balance the loams that have 339 uses, the soft metal with 202 uses and the gems with 193 uses (assuming all subclasses represent 1/24 of the worldwide playerbase, and people only using rare MC rings on average, flavor of the month classes and individual server population proportions would affect this in practical applications; in my experience as a jeweler, this is about average, since I have sold at least seven times more MC rings than any other t8 MC jeweler-crafted gear).
Deson wrote: If all adept 3s required loam, then hard metal clusters would have no value and you could double the price of loams from what you see today. Jewelery metals would be just about as valuable as hard metal clusters. Why? Because all of these prices are affected by the demand for adept 3 spells. It has been believed that loams come into the world at a lower rate than jewelery rares. Domino has said that they come in at an equal rate. This can only lead me to belive that demand for loam is much higher than JC rares. Loam only has one use, that is to make fighter and scout spells. With the price being twice as high as JC rares I can only summise that there is twice as much demand. This leads me to believe that the number of jewelery peices actually produced and used is insignificant in compairison to adept 3 spells. Even if everybody wanted a complete set of MC jewelery made that is only 10 peices in compairison to the 25 spells you would have. Closer to the truth, most people want 2-4 peices at most each tier as they approach the high end (t7, t8). They generally want all of their spells to be adept 3 or better. So now that a move was made to help jewelers to even out, how about helping all the scouts, fighters, alchemists and jewelers (again) by evening out the available spell rares? It is possible to even things further, but I really don't want to affect other rares by spreading out the possible sources of ink to non-traditional rares. That isn't fair to the other crafting classes who you can argue would have their markets severly affected by raising the base cost of their master crafted products. (i.e. they gain an advantage vs dropped items by having a lower base cost. If their base cost was raised by over 2p they would loose all marketability.)
Like much with the system, I'd prefer full redesign but loams stick out as something that would likely be either expanded or axed; they could not remain as is.Thanks for laying it out with the numbers. I figured that was part of it but it still have my reservations. I'm leaning to the pricing being affected by the long period of time loams were a royal pain to acquire compared to other rares.
Deson wrote: Flesh out your ideas for a total redesign. Don't just say you'd like something else without proposing something. All that is doing is pointing out that this idea isn't optimal without pusing us towards something better. Too much of that kind of thinking and we get no action instead of an improvement. If you have spelled out your idea somewhere else how about a little shameless plug and cross linking it? If I could think of something that I think would be fair to the non-spell crafting classes AND to the adventurers while improving the existing situation I'd do it. I can't and I'm a fairly creative person. Making a new rare with a new node for just spell rares would be a disaster. Just as bad or even worse than making all adept 3s come from loam. Making all rares available for ink means raising the price of wood, hard metal, and hides to about tripple their current values. Adventurers would win out, but all of us crafters would pay for that one. Changing the adept 3 rares to being mob drops is too drastic of a solution. Also proper distribution would be highly debatable. I think if you could use all 3 current spell rares it would raise the price of the jewelery rares by about 25%, while lowering loam to be equal in price. Hard metals would probably raise in price to the level of roots due to the lower availablity. I see that as perferable to the current situation.
Meirril wrote: Heh, tell me about it. I've spent a lot of this holiday pondering the adept III problem and haven't come up with a perfect solution either. One reason it's so obvious at the moment is that drop rates of master I's are a bit lower in this teir, so there's more demand for adept III's, which makes the demand on loams proportionately higher. Eventually it'll drop off of course, so one option is just to leave it as is, and people just have to learn to wait a bit for their full set of adept III's. Ink (recipe given to all scholars) is another possibility which I've considered, however since loams aren't used for anything else, if ink were possible it probably makes sense to get rid of loams entirely. Same with just allowing any of the 3 adept III rares to be used directly in adept III recipes of any type. While armorsmiths and everyone else who hates mining ore will rejoice, THAT then means every other recipe that uses loams will need to be redone, and that's not an insignificant task. It also means the cost of mastercrafted jewelry will rise, although since jewelers use both gems and soft metal it might not hit them as hard as some of the alternatives. Such as making ore usable for adept III's, which would drive the cost of mastercrafted armor and weapons through the roof, as ore would then be more in demand than loams, and people who may pay 1p or so for a mastercrafted armor item might not be so willing to pay 2-3p or give up having an adept III. Using roots, pelts or wood would similarly affect tailors, woodworkers, and carpenters, and the cost of cloth armor would inflate -- basically, switching one class to using any other rare will cause loams to be disproportionately cheaper than all the other adept III rares since they are the only one not used for anything else, also penalizing any crafting class that uses the existing one we switch to as its prices rise, and making whichever class I didn't leave on loams sulk at me. Adding yet another rare really doesn't make sense and overcomplicates things still further and would require redoing all the harvesting tables AND all the nodes in all the zones which is again, not a simple task, and we've already seen how difficult it is to balance supply and demand for the existing nodes and harvests within them. *head spins* I haven't completely dismissed the ideas above, though neither have I completely dismissed the idea of leaving it as is. I haven't yet managed to convince myself any of these is a perfect solution either though. If anybody else comes up with one, I'll be happy to hear it.
Meirril wrote: Actually I have and pieces of it have shown up in too many threads to link them (or remember). In short I've never been a fan of dropped rares or widely available adept 3's and all my plans are based on dropping down to 6 crafting classes and having fairly clear lines in who makes what; there are too many classes on both sides to try to be fair to.If I were to do it now though, I'd almost certainly add loams to the fishing tables. Fishing nodes are in much the same boat as shrubs used to be( and sort of still are) in that they are underharvested. From scratch I probably would have just left them as more common treasured drops from dungeon mobs- one set for mages/priests and another for fighters/scouts split if only to prevent potential flooding and limit vicious intragroup fighting.
What about adding a rare ( that would be used either for fighters, or for scouts ) to bushes ? That would solve the bush problem in the old world zones at the same time.
Another thought: (1) Use the imbue material to make the Adept IIIs. It is harvested from all nodes, so all nodes would be equally desirable to harvest, instead of just the hard and soft metal nodes, from an Adept III point of view anyway. It already sells for cheap on the broker; i.e. there exists an oversupply of it. It is already a rare harvest. If this change is made, then it should give a "ding" sound when it is harvested, which it currently does not do (any more), which is a further sign of its oversupply. Adept III spells could require more than one if the supply of it is too great. Jewelers, and to some extent Carpenters, would no longer be penalized. Armorers, Weaponsmiths, and to a slight extent Jewelers, would no longer have a cheap supply of rare hard metal. The cost of all the non rare harvests would equalize on the broker. As it is now in tier eight, soft metal and gemstone are two copper, hard metal and loams still copper, the rest silver to tens of silver. (2) Remove the dusts from the game, use the rare loams to make rare potions. For a short time on test, there were no rare potions. Then after some complains dusts were added to bring rare potions back. Around that time, a dev stated rare potions where supposed to be the exception not the rule when using potions. As it is now, rare potions are the rule rather than the exception. (2a) Leaving dusts in and having the rare loams be usable for rare potions too is another possibility. Or, removing the rare loams entirely and keeping the dusts. (3) So long as Adept III spells remain the only mastercrafted item without widely available upgrades, there will exist no solution to the problem using the rare harvested items specific to a particular tradeskill class. How many quests give a master spell as a reward? Zero! There used to be one such quest in the Poet's Palace, but after complaining, that reward was changed to an Adept I. -Leucippus P.S. In this post, I will mostly bite my tongue, or fingers anyway, and not make a comment about mastercrafted jewelry other than this comment.
Another reason Adept III spells might be more in demand in tier eight may be combat balancing. The non-raid mobs are significantly tougher in tier 8, making the Adept III spells a lot more deseriable for even a non-raiding toon. -Leucippus
Honestly, I think patience is the best answer. In every other tier (at least, on Najena), the rare loam is cheaper than almost any other rare (pelts being the big exception.) I think as the market settles, after the initial rush of people hit 80 and get their arts upgraded, loam at this tier will rebalance in price. There's a huge demand for it now, just as there's a huge demand for the masters themselves which are still at hugely inflated prices on the broker. No matter what is changed, something is going to be more scarce and in higher demand than something else. Yes, it sucks when you want the thing that is scarce more than the things that are not. But it's part of the design of the game that every day, the number of rare loams that exist in the world will increase. They will catch up with demand. And then they'll be affordable again.
Possibly the ratio of ore to loam is mucked up? I don't know about anyone else, but I get significantly more rare ore harvesting than I get rare loam. If such is the case altering that alone should help with the problem.
here is the problem as i see it. Its a supply and demand issue. Classes that use loam(fighters and scouts) as there ad3 rare = 12 Classes that use priest rare = 6 Classes that use mage rare = 6 This makes the rare loam in much higher demand. On unrest loams are still double the price of the other rares needed for ad3's. Add in the fact that the fight/scout rare is the rare to get from nodes and the fact that its needed by twice as many classes as the other rares and your asking for them to be higher priced. On unrest last night priest and mage rares were under 2 plat each and the fighter scout ones were around 5 plat! So lets say you level all the way to 80 and go to have all your ad3's made roughly 27 to 30 plus spells/ca's. Ill use 25 thu as a easy number and it errors on the low side. It will cost the average mage/preist 50 plat to go full ad3. Where as it will cost the average fighter/scout 125 plat! A 75 plat differance! For some scouts (not sure about the fighters) 25 is way on the low side.
Its interesting how often this discussion comes into play, and I am very pleased to see even Domino responding this time! I have given thought to this subject even back when there were inks...and mushroom nodes! I truely believe the answer is going to revolve around tuning the existing nodes or even bringing back the 'shrooms (of which I am an advocate of btw). Here are a couple of snippets from an older post, but very relevant. Find the whole thread here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=384003 Eneoki (Me): "Fighters & Scouts need rare loams for spell upgrades - Priests and Mages both use a different type, this means your already looking for something that is twice as rare as the next guys needs. How is that balanced?" ....later in the same post, " I know they took the fungus nodes out a long time ago, but maybe its time to revist that idea again and give either the fighters or the scouts their own spell rare. Heck, you make Ore give only Hard metal rare/common and the "fungus" node the loam common/rare - seems that would solve the problem altogether. Magic mushrooms anyone!" And my personal fav solution, "Heh, just gave me an idea.. The main issue with changing loam vs metal is the rares. All nodes except two used to have a rare, now only one lacks a rare.. Maybe increase the fishing populace by adding rare loam to the shoals in same way as roots for shrubs? Would have to increase the fishing nodes in many areas tho, from being almost only the node type up long ago to barely a single one when you need one today.." Its not my intention to necro this post, but I dig into any opportunity to help work on this known issue...and thank you Domino for actively participating and aknowledging this concern.
DominoDev wrote: Well you could make it where there are more then 1 rare option per spell combine. For example.. Scout classes - Loam or Tynn, Fighter - Loam or Incarn, Priest - Emerald or Incarn, Mage - Tynn or Emerald Making it where there are 2 choices per class subtype and each rare I listed above would have 2 uses instead of just the one. Combos can be switched as seen fit, this was just a rough example of my idea.
DominoDev wrote: Frankly, I do not see what is wrong with simply making loam/soft metal/gems usable for all upgrades. without getting rid of loams at all. It will even out some of the inequity (loams are used by two classes but have half as much chance as dropping as other rares - an ore will drop an upgrade rare or a heavy metal rare. A mineral deposit will drop either an upgrade rare or an upgrade rare). It will not really mess up any of the overall rarity of adept III upgrades. It will simply even things out. The extra verbiage is just complicating things. No one is going to pick up any pitchforks from a simple change like this, and all you need to do is compare the amount of rare gems to loams to see there is an issue here.
Well, there is a possible aggressive "fix" for adept 3 spells. Follow the logic train here and see if I'm just off on this one please. It isn't very well thought out so... If the sources of loam were expanded to include a 50/50 split from shrubs, and a rare 50/50 split from fishing nodes (I'd propose rare hides and loam share a spot on fishing nodes), and a rare 50/50 split on wood then you'd have the people farming loam cleaning up what is now considered unwanted nodes in many zones. This might have the effect of increasing the amount of rare wood instead of decreasing it. I think you'd see wood drop in price! (what *is* loam anyways? We eat the stuff, make spells from it, make poison with it, and tinkerers can't get enough of the stuff. But it comes from rocks? I mean, seriously it can't be good for you!) So now we have all these sources of loam. Would this increase the actual amount of loam harvested? Maybe. There are farmers out there that hit nodes as fast as they spawn looking for the high priced rare so they can make their quota. There is everybody else looking for a little fast coin too. There are lots of people looking for loam. Anyways, lets just say this would effectively double the supply of loam and turn it from the most expensive rare to potentially flooding the market. Go back and add loam to all adept 3 spell recipes. This would allow sages to use the 2 jewelery metals or loam. Potentally the price of loam would lower the current market prices of jewelery rares. Of course now you'd see zones filling up with dens and roots...I can see adding loam to both but this is getting silly at this point. (loam is a fungus, right? grows on rocks and trees, in dark damp places. Hmm...maybe dens arn't that far fetched.) One thing I'll point out, you don't see crafted materials on loot tables anymore. They use to drop from named heroic mobs like legendary gear. Mainly because they use to be legendary quality.
OOC. This idea of having an "ink" or "solvent" or whatever one calls it, for converting rares into other rares, is in my opinion, a very bad one. It makes no actual sense, not to mention being unfair to those tradeskill classes that are not included. What next, a recipe called "rare sauce", made from any "rare" and used for making all mastercrafted items? Because that is only one step further, and it makes a joke of the fact that this IS a roleplaying game. So, ok, what exactly is the problem with the current system exactly as it is then? It works well, and has already been changed previously on numerous occasions to get it where it is now, where most players are settled with it how it is. I see only one actual observation that is based in fact rather than just random opinion wanting change: namely, that rare loams do indeed appear to be about double the cost of rare gems, and that in turn is down to demand for Adept III spells. So, what is the easiest, simplest way of rectifying this precise "problem" (if it even is a problem), with minimum fuss and minimum other change? It is very easy - just increase the "spawn" rate of that one rare accordingly. It would need to be tuned, but that can be done over time. That would increase the supply, which would result in more balanced prices. Equal prices do not have to be achieved, just in the same ballpark is fine. Problem solved, without having to redesign the crafting recipes for many classes yet again (creating loads of work for Domino in the process), and also without upsetting a far larger number of crafters who are quite happy without yet another huge re-design that is not needed. Please, do not fix what is not broken!
