Level 88 SK. I need AC first and foremost, of course. Right? But what other stats. I mean if I have the choice between 33 AC 3 dex or 33 AC 3 agi what should I do? I'd really appreciate any and all guidance on augs. I heroic'ed my SK when he got to 83. I was planning to get him to 85 and then do it but I got greedy/impatient. I am working the quests in Feerot the Dream now and getting some augs that way (the augs are why I heroic'ed).
First of all, AC as you said it. Then heroic Dex > heroic Agi > heroic sta. Having a mix of high AC aug with heroic Dex and heroic Agi, as heroic Agi plays an impact on your AC, is the best imo (with a few high AC heroic Sta augs there if you want)
At your level, with your gear, and vs the content you do, hDex is a solid stat. hDex boosts ripo and parry rates while hagl only boosts dodge rates. If all things are equal, I'd go with hDex. However, there are many cases before L95 where hAgl augs have superior AC/HP, and if you can get better stats with hAgl I'd go with those. VoA/L95 to CotF/L100, hDex augs have superior stats. TDS/L105, there is more of a mix between hSta, hDex, and hAgl augs. raidloot.com has some good search functions for this stuff. You can search by expansion or by level. By expansion: http://www.raidloot.com/Search.aspx...gslot=7,8&source=HoT&order=1AC=10HP&view=List By level: (Have to scroll past a bunch of temporary augs) http://www.raidloot.com/Search.aspx...evel=88&source=Group&order=1AC=10HP&view=List You can also search by 1hdex=4ac=10hp or 1hagl=4ac=10hp.
AC and Hdex eventually Until you get to the point you can fill all your slots with High AC + Hdex, Prioritize like Such Ac + Hdex > AC + Hagi > The rest.
As much parsing as I've done, I have never been able to show any statistical difference in raid gear at the 25 point breaks for improved Riposte and Parry. I came to the conclusion long ago that heroic stats have diminishing returns in terms of defensive stats to the point that there is virtually no statistical or observable difference that I can show (at least at current raid gear levels.) It's for that reason that I avoid HDex as much as possible. My preferences are in things I can tangibly see. I choose HAgi because I can directly see percentile impacts based on Dzarn's "True AC" calculations.from the AC vs AC2 thread. Beyond that, I choose HSta. HDex is third in line, and only chosen because the aug is too good in other variables to pass up. I would be exceptionally excited if someone had parses to, say, a 95% confidence interval on test that could show me otherwise. I, personally, was never able to get any conclusive data between break points even at a 90% confidence interval. I was merely changing augs with identical AC between HSta and HDex to cross the 25-point break mark when I tested it. Anyways, that's my two cents. Because I couldn't show HDex was useful statistically, I avoid it. That's a personal preference on my part to lean towards HAgi as the dominant stat, all things being equal. I could be wrong and things may have changed since I ran the numbers a year ago - keep that in mind. I just thought i'd throw out my personal opinion, as it differs from many in this thread. Take it as you will!
I appreciate all the replies. As I mentioned, I am currently doing the tasks in Feerot for Augs. I don't know a way to get anything better and they seem pretty decent for my level.
This is the best advice. Take what you are able to get. Everyone has their own personal opinion on augs. Like stated above sometimes there is very little discernible difference in them or another one. I for instance plat the easy way, if it has higher AC than one I am wearing I replace it. I care very little for other stats a far as augs go. Given the choice of two augs that are equal face value of AC then I normally take Agi > Dex > Sta. HP Mana Endur don't even play into my decisions, unless all other things equal.
Since Heroic Agi plays an impact on AC, I admit I value Heroic Agi and Dex equally now, but all the recent anniversary augs I went towards Heroic Agi as we have yet more "regular" Heroic Dex aug with high AC.
my toon was not heroic basically I was told for my SK box to get a set of 25 AC then work on a set of 30AC ect. and now some augs better then 35 AC Fabled each year - has some augs but I think they are all higher level to get. The hot zone quests - has some augs quest- http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11732 since your heroic- Heroic augmentations can only be obtained by Heroic Characters I think their was like 32 added AC 30 augs for http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Heroic_Character
I agree with Pwnography in that I doubt the effectiveness of Hdex and Hagi other than the ac from the agi. Riposte/Parry and Dodge % are essentially non existent on current raid mobs. The hype on dex imo is way over blown and I prefer to see tangible stat increases such as ac and hp. Once i get my 25 Hagi bump I focus on Hsta which most tanks clown on. However AC = Mitigation and HP = Less chance to get 1 rounded. With all the spell dmg tanks take on raids HPs can not be overlooked. When I can see a significant % success rate on riposte/parry or dodge I will change course and use the heroics to increase the efficiency of those defenses but in the meantime i will stick with agi and sta
The onus is on those claiming all the miracle benefits of HDex without being able to tangibly show me one shred of evidence at raid gear levels. But, whatever i need to get my point across. Better yet, ill re-do them at modern raid gear levels tonight and run the data through Minitab for ya. I don't raid till Sunday, so I should be able to compile some 20k+ data point parses. Ill take it a step further this time and see if I can use tribute and a few other tricks to get a larger break point difference (75+.) All tests will be ran completely without buffs, ceterus paribus, etc with the control factor of HDex via augs and tribute. Normally, I'd tell you to do it yourself instead of being spoon-fed data by other people. Hell, kick on some tribute or swap augs and try it. The only doubters I ever find are the people who are too lazy to set up a basic test themselves. This is a day and overnight afk kind of event - nothing exceptionally difficult here. That said, I have no faith you can navigate statistical software or do anything else but throw out GamParse reports. Ill get back with ya here tomorrow evening.
This thread has gotten silly, as the OP was/is a level 88 non-raiding, non-hardcore SK that's not remotely close to the hDex or hAgl levels of L105 raiders and is playing in content that existed years before the strikthrough bugged mobs of ROF/CotF.... a problem that has been fixed in most recent content mind you. Strawman much? He never claimed anything in regards to hDex being a 'miracle stat,' nor did he doubt your results, he simply wanted to see them. Considering you're going onto forums trying to persuade others to change their gear plan to what you think is ideal, I don't think it's remotely unreasonable for people to ask for the data that lead to that decision, given it's a copy-paste away. What you and other pro-hAgl people fail to realize is that you can't assume a marginal gain hAgl produces a parsable increase in mitigation either. You say pro-hDex people should give you evidence hDex is relevant in raid content. Why don't you give evidence that marginal gains in hAgl are relevant to mitigation in raid content? Keep in mind, for years the hardcore and respected parsers, and largely everyone, thought the AC from agility was fake. They had plenty of parses (of higher quality data collection and analysis than your's) of both normal and heroic agility where notably differences in mitigation / DI rolls would be have been made clear. It's only been since the devs said agility ac isn't fake that people 'assume' hAgl will produce a notable increase in hAgl. Do you realize how silly some of the things you write are?
I've wondered about AC vs hagi vs hdex vs hp hsta for years. As far as easily parsing hdex benefits, it matters if your talking in current raids vs. boss only where its really hard to control all variables and do controlled long time parses, or If you mean against a test dummy. Hdex will have a ton of more benefit against group trash mobs then a current raid boss. If raid boss strike through is changed or fixed I haven't seen it. Like Kamea said, just because you cant show what hdex does, doesn't mean you can show what hagi does, aside from the fact that in the ac vs. ac2 post it does show that it has an effect on AC. Obviously you can see the basic benefit of HP gained. It would be really nice to have a definitive answer past just opinions of which augs are best for which content, but so far I haven't seen it.
Kamea, I write with a bit of demagoguery, there is no doubt. But, I don't think you actually read anything in my original post. The point is, I cannot demonstrate any statistical difference in defensive rates across break points for Dex or Agi. Even if I head to mobs or utilize test server options to tune in to where my defensives go off at a decent rate, or head to Roon with a cleric till my eyes bleed, I cannot statistically show to any level of significance that my mod rates are going up. This is for parry, riposte, dodge, et cetera. What is being asked for is... data that shows nothing. I'm more than happy to go re-insert all my data into Minitab and post chart after chart, but you're just going to see statistically irrelevant results. (As I indicated in my first post - I am *unable* to show anything to any confidence level I feel I could even remotely trust.) I would say the same for Agility, but Dzarn kindly inserted the actual game calculations. HAgi has an impact on 'True Avoidance AC' whereas your gear AC comes into play with 'True Mitigation AC.' The ratio, at least for my character, is I get double the percentage increase per point of HAgi to avoidance that I do from a point of AC. In other words, 1 HAgi = 2 AC in terms of equivalency of equal percentage increases between the two. That gets more complicated because we're dealing with apples and oranges, though. How do we compare gains in mitigation vs being missed? The point is, I advocate for HAgi simply because we have hard-coded formulae from the game showing it actually has an impact, however minor. Stamina as well, as it is easily visible. I can show you that you do, indeed, gain an increase in computed miss rates with HAgi directly from formulas provided from the game itself. I put no weight into increase in defensive skills, because I am unable to demonstrate it whether I parse ten or one hundred hours. Statistically, it isn't there. I'm not saying either stat will give you a noticable result. If you look at my magelo, when given the choice Ive chosen to stack Sta. That one should show you i dont have much faith in Agi nor Dex. I cannot provide any data to support Dex or Agi defensive mods to any degree of relevance - but we know HAgi has *some* level of effect on miss rates. Given the choice between some, or no, data - well, I'll hedge my bets towards what at least has a shred of credibility (the code.)
Thing is, we largely agree on conclusions. I believe the benefit of marginal hDex, hAgl stat gains at this point of the game isn't parsable. A well geared tank will get 350-375 hAgl and 375-400 hDex from his/her gear, before slot7/8 augs. Augs will add ~50-120 hAgl, and even if the tank prioritizes one over the other, you're talking about trading ~50 hDex for hAgl or vice versa (since the best AC augs favor dex more than hAgl.) If you want the tradeoff to be greater than that, you'd have to start taking big AC hits to accommodate old hAgl augs which would be counterproductive, and many of the best augs have both stats. Parsing this for purposes of making gear decisions is a waste of time, since most of us assume going from 400->450 hAgl or 500->550 hDex won't be of a parseable benefit over the alternative. Augs have stagnated a lot over the years. The overwhelming bulk of our stats come from our gear, and there are few/no stat tradeoffs on gear these days. =========== Parsing still matters, as does sharing parses. If hAgl hDex have become obsolete at this point of the game, perhaps it should be shown to the devs so they can address it by fixing it, or consider adding new stats/effects that are relevant to tanking. Biggest problem with tank parsing is beta/test arena dummies. They can't replicate the melee abilities of trash mobs, and certainly not raid bosses. Until this is addressed, no one can truly claim to understand the effect marginal stat changes have on raid tanks.
I'm afraid you're taking my request for a parse completely the wrong way. I'm not suggesting you're wrong. I am interested in doing things like parsing the effects of X, Y, Z in gear on DPS and tankability, etc. It's my favorite thing about EQ. The reason I asked is because you appear to have done it already, and I hadn't seen them before, so why do it again myself when someone (you) had already done the work. That's all.
My sincere apologies to you, Sirene, for my reaction. I popped open my phone to the forums after a particularly difficult encounter this morning, and I'm afraid I was looking at every post in a negative light. I'm more than happy to provide you with the data, as well as run the tests again. Here is the information I ran back when I was at lower values. I think my AC around the time was 10200. This test was ran, on purpose, against four max level combat dummies on test. I sped them up as much as possible and raised the attack as much as I possibly could, but it still provided an excellent rate of defensive abilities being scored. I wanted a high number of counts for more data points. Note: Excel had a couple formulas in there that didnt get formatted properly. I.e., it should say 0.20%, 0.10%, and 0.20% in the difference column. The data itself is fine (first two columns), but my spreadsheet calculations went awry when I took the screenshot. I'm not even going to run more detailed information on this data, because as you can see we're dealing with tenths of a percentage gains or losses. The stats were switched away from HDex. Some to Agi, some to Hsta. The control variable there was HDex Dependent Defensive rates, not dps taken or anything else for that matter. I could draw no conclusion that the stat did anything in terms of modding the proc rate at the 350+ level. I did not attempt lower HDex values. As you can see, there is fourteen hours or data points with four mobs swinging fully hasted for simply these two situations, fully unbuffed to control variables. I'll run more tests tonight and see if my opinion changes varying only tribute values instead of aug swapping. I think I'll get a better outlook that way and either way, I'll come back here and post my results. If I'm wrong now, I'll be more than happy to admit it. With simply adjusting tribute values, I'll be able to look at a wider range of things than two of the above variables.
Sirene, Starting a new set of parse data. Test subjects are going to be five "Test One Hundred Three" on Test. No buffs, frozen HoT only to keep me alive. Each has been spammed one-hundred times with the following commands: Surprisingly, if you do enough, they can start to hit in the 8k range with relative frequency. I've found that to be around 100 repetitions of the hot-key. Given that we're not looking at DI tables and trying to find the lowest common denominator in terms of just showing if a difference exists at all in these gear levels for rates of Dodge, Riposte, Parry, et cetera, the test dummies will suffice and allow for ten to fifteen hours of data points. I'm going to do it as-is with 418 HAgi and 445 HDex, then turn on Dance of the Hero and Hero's Deftness Rk X for +20 HAgi and +20 HDex. If you see any issues with these parse parameters, let me know. I'll report back tomorrow with the overnight results in a table format to see if I can derive any conclusions this time around. I realize that aug swapping the last time may not have been perfect, so I'm repeating with simple heroic mods to existing gear. I'll report back after the overnight/morning run. It'll be a starting point, at least.
Testing anything defensively related on Test dummies will not give you an relevant parse. (they have no Heroic Strikethrough, base pop mobs in every zone since SOF do have heroic strikethrough) If you wanted to Test this, you would need to goto some kind of relevant content. You would then need some way to find the relative value of AC on that content in comparison to the avoidance of the heroics. the value of Heroics versus Raw AC is going to be a bit more Dynamic i would imagine then you would think. IE: It would change based on each zone/mob type and their relative ATK values and Strikethrough values.
