Is The Warrior Class Dead?

Warrior popularity is absolutely diminished by poor soloability compared to Knights. If anything, the dev comment just makes the death of the class more inevitable.

Since EQ opened some classes could solo and some couldn't. The ability to solo wasn't something they wanted to happen, but it happened all the same. Over the years, many classes have attained abilities not originally meant to solo with, like headshot and swarming. Either they weren't set up properly to begin with, or they were used in ways the Devs never thought of and they have been left in the game.

I don't think any knight would care if warriors could solo all day without a healer and take no damage doing so. The ability for a class to solo has nothing to do with balance and it has nothing to do with desire of the class in a group or raid. If you want solo abilities then just say it and keep the desire for the classes argument separate like it should be.

If a warrior is not doing as well in the group setting then buffing is in order, no one argues this. If raiding is being taken away from them, then buffing is in order, but this new knight ability is not the apocolypse it's being made out to be.

Warrior popularity for as far back as I can remember, is the glory of raid boss tanking. Always being the first tank class to get geared in raiding guilds due to it. Ive been raiding for over a decade and its always been this way where I come from. Warriors and Clerics main roles will always be on raids. Its where they will always shine the most. Its why I always tell someone that doesnt plan on raiding to roll a Knight instead of a Warrior. Anyone that rolls a Warrior and doesnt plan on raiding, is going to be in for a lot of pain and frustration.

Not to mention, there are other classes besides Warrior right now that cant solo effectively either. Warriors arent alone in that boat.

I agree with most the things you said,regardless, soloing is a part of modern EQ for many players. I would argue that the ability to solo relative to another tank class does indeed have to do with class balance - maybe not tanking balance, but it does for class balance. It a nice advantage for one tank class to be able to solo 2 - 100 times faster than another tank class. Especially for someone new to the game, who doesn't want to pay a ranger or SK to pl him. And of course one can say "well get a group". But there is a reason Paladins solo undead, and SK swarm for a kajillion AA or plat. These things are a factor when considering a class, and what it brings to the table (class balance if you will). It doesn't matter if they were dev accidents or not, they are factors.

Right if they don't want to get a Ranger, SK, Bard, Cleric, Mage, Necromancer, Enchanter, Berserker, Rogue, Monk, Wizard, Druid, Beastlord, Shaman, or Paladin to help PL them. All great solo classes either from birth, or once they reach a certain portion of their level/AA range.

So since Warriors are still premier raid tanks, I guess all we need to do is give them more solo ability and everything is fine again. Right? It stands to reason that since knights are still behind in raid situations (even said a few times in this thread), but are ahead in group, then the only thing they are truly missing is more solo appeal.

Your statement that warriors are still premier raid tanks is certainly contested in these forums. I think I've seen 2 raid leaders saying in here they will no longer recruit warriors (not because they have enough warriors, but because they favor knights to tank the bosses).

People disputing things on the forums isn't a sign of anything. This new ability absolutely doesn't make knights even in raid tanking nor should it. If it was possible to be even, it would have happened before this ability as this ability is not an upgrade to anything knights didn't already have other than there not being a damage cap. We already had a 35% mitigation with full self healing, now we have a 36% with greatly diminished healing. It's nothing.

Giving Warriors more is a great idea, but if you want to be equal in group tanking you have to be absolutely equal in raid tanking at least that is where I think it will end up. I don't care one way or another. I wasn't foolish enough to pick my class because I could be the best soloist, archetypes are irrelevant when soloing. I played a Necromancer previously and when I decided to choose a more group friendly class I decided SK was easier for me to transition into. Hell for that matter if you want to be the best soloist, raid tank, and group tank in the game I don't care, but let's not try and make it out that it's this one ability that did it. It's not even close. Let's just say what we want rather than hiding it behind something so laughable.

You make a poor retort Sinestra, and I can tell you why. First you assert that warriors are the "premier" raid tanks, but when others on this forum dispute that notion you state that "it doesn't mean anything"? So your opinion is valid, and others are not - you need to bring more to the table there to prove this. Second, you are putting things in my mouth - I never said I wanted anything, I don't even know if I want anything truthfully, other than people to know the current state of the warrior class. I'll stop here, two points are enough I guess.

We use Warriors first and foremost as the main raid tanks in all raids.
Until such time there is an event that shows a preference from deviating from that I don't see that lineup changing.

And others disagree that they aren't the premier raid tanks. You only see the ones with which you agree and therefore aren't capable of discussing anything. The post you quoted put no words in your mouth. Not one, not even an implication. I simply said "IF" you want something you can have it. That isn't putting words in your mouth so let us stop trying to sidestep the issue. So far you haven't said anything about what you want, you've only complained about what others have instead which is in no way constructive or helpful. You say two points are enough and I contend that you have yet to make a point anywhere about anything.

You're not discussing anything, you're just complaining in more than this thread. You've offered no feedback other than you think soloing is important. In fact you seem to want people nerfed as seen in this quote...

I'm fine with helping warriors. I originally posted specific non arguable numbers to help people understand and you didn't like that and decided to tell me it was basically irrelevant and since that moment you've only continued to distract rather than truly participate or contribute to the conversation.

I'll say it again, I am quite happy boosting warriors. If you want solo ability it makes no difference to SKs or Paladins. If you want more tanking ability it makes little to no difference to knights. Most knights just want a role other than playing backup healer or kiter that is useful in a raid. Tanking is a knight's primary role, they want to be useful on raids so there is a reason to bring one even if the reason isn't tanking.This ability you seem to think is the end of warriors isn't as big as you think it is, and you're honestly welcome to it, although you'd get a different negative effect than self healing which is specifically what the decrease in dps was designed for. There should be a reason to invite a knight over a warrior to a group and a warrior over a knight or they should be entirely equal in tanking and just go about it differently.

There are ways to make this work, you just need to decide what it is you want rather than sitting around complaining and nit picking everyone who chimes in on the subject. It's pretty simple. I'm not sure why you think everyone is against you, no one is.

Thank to their unheard of stamina and heavy armor Warriors are unmatched at surviving the most brutal battles.

Hold it right there says knights - Knights and Warriors should all be able to tank everything in group content. You'll have to be satisfied with the most dangerous mobs being in raid content.

Let's be accurate about who campaigned for tank parity in group content please. It was knights starting in GoD and culminating with the DoN patch notes stating it had become a goal of SOE's and had been achieved.

A key to a good group, Warriors do not fair well adventuring alone.

The offsetting disadvantage to Warrior tanking superiority in group and raid content was little capability outside of the tank archetype that made soloing a lot easier for knights. Hello tank parity(and knight spellbook superiority). Oh and still hello does not fair well adventuring alone. The advantage went away. The counterbalancing disadvantage remained.

So Sinestra posts - knights having gained tank parity in group content while keeping outside of the tank archetype abilities, now say if Warriors want equality in group content they should give up survival advantage in raid content too.

Hey no offense, but when part tanks post such things its not Warrior paranoia, it's just the whats been going on.

Sinestra is right about one thing though - there are ways to work things out.

I actually said I couldn't possibly care less if you are superior tanks in group and raid content. Read again, I'll wait since as usual you as well gloss over what you don't care to hear. I said if warriors want to be equal in group tanking then they are most likely going to be balanced by losing their edge in raiding. It's unlikely they are going to give you both. If they do it doesn't matter to me at all. It won't hurt me in the slightest.

There's no paranoia, your argument involving me is invalid.

Battleaxe (/cough Battleblade) would love to see the tanking aspects of EQ be brought back to the stone age where a lot of things require a defensive Warrior to tank.

Hes a horrible horrible player and hes been a running joke for years now within the Warrior and Knight communities. I wouldnt listen to him, ROFLMAO

"I said if warriors want to be equal in group tanking then they are most likely going to be balanced by losing their edge in raiding."

Lol. Let's remember knights begged for the ability to tank as well as Warriors in group content. Having surpassed Warriors in group content people who once insisted parity was required now suggest Warriors would lose the unmatched ability to survive in raids (where it never should have been confined) to re-gain parity in group content. LOL.

Battleaxe(Battleblade) has been a long time contributor to the game posting suggestions and observations which either anticipated changes to the game that were going to take place anyway or motivated SOE to look at and change an aspect of the game that absent posts they might not have focused on.

There are a number of knights who, despite choosing less capable classes in tanking than Warriors in exchange for outside of the tank archetype abilities, have always wanted all or as much of the Warrior cake as possible while retaining their non-tank cake as a bonus.

A prominent (at the time) Paladin once posted
If you want to heal and cure as well as a Cleric roll a Cleric.
If you want to tank as well as a Warrior roll a Warrior.
If you want to be able to tank most group content and have a role tanking adds in raids while casting modest heals and cures then enjoy playing the Paladin you chose to play.

He saw the wanting Warrior cake PLUS desires of some hybrids and was (as we all are) ashamed for them.

Btw, when I think of Warrior I think of the Primary Tank in heavy armor (just like the class description says) wielding a massive sword and a shield. But then I'm not motivated to try to get people to think of Warriors as Rangers in plate armor. When I think of knight I think hybrid and a choice made in bad faith (by some of them).

As an SOE employee once observed - if knights can tank as effectively as Warriors and in addition have powerful spellbooks giving them other abilities why would anyone play a Warrior?

That's the way thing are SOE, we carry on despite everything done after the fact to make chosing to be the Primary Tank a poor choice.

Warriors should be a powerful tank class in all avenues of tanking in EQ, not just the raid MT role.

That we should have to give up soloability and group power, in addition to utility, spellbook and self healing for this ONE raid role is ridiculous.

I agree you should be a powerful tank role. I think any tank should be equally attractive in any content group or raid content, but at the same time if they decide to make warriors like Battleblade wants them then we will soon go back to the days where there is no reason to ever roll or bring a knight as they will have no role to fill that isn't filled a million times better than multiple other classes.

There has to be a way to make warriors attractive in group content where they don't completely negate knights. Right now there seem to be a lot of people saying they have no reason to play a warrior, but seem fine with it being fixed to have no reason to play a knight again including Battleblade. That's pretty hypocritical.

Which people? It seems to me you are imagining things. I think it is actually amazing there has been so little outcry over the fact that Warriors have been completely outclassed in group content (where parity was desired). There has even been very little outcry when the DPS pecking order was changed from knights first, then warriors. Yes, we squirmed when Dual Wield was taken away from us and made to look like those other tanks -- but I guess that's just bonus now since we might be mistaken for a Knight when looking for a group.

Now however we basically lost the last thing we had left -- and developers apparently came up with this amazing new "give them another defensive disc" idea all on their own. Well... Shadowknights can cry that their latest disc is only useful for DPS-ing, but the reality is that with the "standard" healing that a Warrior would receive during main tanking, that disc is STILL incredibly useful. Sure, you won't be able to solo the boss on your own for extended periods of time, and you'll actually be dependent on the clerics to keep you up. Welcome to Warrior-land.

Its a lot different with the innate mitigation boost that Warriors have coupled with the Final Stand boost. Knights dont have a innate mitigation boost on top of the defensive disc like you guys have. So we have to have rely on taps/leech and self heals etc to compensate. That is the main reason that the third defensive disc that we received stinks for Shadowknights. Nerfing 60% of our melee damage hurts us in these regards.

So no, things being equal, Warriors will always take raw damage better than Knights do.