When a complaint begins by comparing abilities of two classes and ignoring the parts where the other class has downsides for those abilities is where the problem happens.
I never ignored it. People brought up the differences, I countered that the downsides of those abilities aren't actually as bad as you are pretending they are. I never wanted shaman spells nerfed. I never wanted the druid healing spells changed. I only wanted to show that the gap between druid single target and shaman single target is not as big as it is often perceived. There was zero class warfare in my original post. I then went on to show that because of that gap that is not so big..that something else entirely different should be done. If you feel druids asking for remote nukes being unlinked, due to our healing spells of the two classes being close in power..is a shaman class envy issue, please re-evaluate.
Yes you did ignore it, otherwise you would have stated the differences in your comparison. When you compared our basic heals you said they where nearly identical even though the shaman heal has a 50% higher base mana cost. When you compared our emergency you compared everything but the big penalty that shaman get with the spell in that it costs us HP to cast the spell which also means a shaman cant use that spell to heal themselves. That is also not including the fact that you are ignoring the healing re-balance the took in the past that increased the healing on both shaman and druid heal spells to allow both classes to more effectively heal in both raids and groups.
1. Some people here will *never* accept what you say, don't even bother. 2. Enough with the class complaining already - any class. Devs don't read threads which get derailed, and baiting trolls to keep talking means they'll just come back next time. 3. TY for making a separate thread for druid stuff. Seeing the shaman one get hijacked like it did was completely uncalled for and a part of why there'll now be increased contention. It works like this: make your point, support it with facts or parses if required, than leave it be. If it's a good point others will second it; if it's ignored try again months later.
As an end game cleric I support this well thought out thread and agree with your suggestions. Give DRU's a self only mana over time ability or something only usable below 10% mana or with rez affects on or something along those lines. I also agree with your suggestion of removing the shared timer on those 2 recourse DD / Heal spells. Those are good starts. As the game currently trends healers are VERY close to balanced in my humble opinion, and this will get us even closer to that goal.
My problem with most of this thread, from a balancing standpoint, is that it only looks at one aspect of the class in comparison to others. To really look at class balance, you have to look at the totality of the class. How much are ports worth? How much is a damage shield worth? How much is an insta evac worth? How much is insta camo worth? Every time I play my shaman or cleric, there are things I really miss about my druid, and visa versa, working as intended. There has to be some price to pay for being a jack of all trades. Druids are already very close in healing capability in many situations, and bring a ton of utility. You really can't ask for a class that has so much utility to be on par with other classes that are more one dimensional. I'm actually surprised druid healing is as good as it is given what else they can do. /shrug. I love my druid because of the flexibility of the class. If druids had the same healing and recovery, who would play anything but a druid? The other classes have to have abilities that make them a real choice to consider.
Ports? Lets see. PoK. Guild Hall Portal. Anchor x2. Most Pre-order items = Port clicky. Throne AA. Gate potions. Sorry, ports aren't worth much. Heck, the guild hall has had better porting locations than druids for 2 expansions now. Invis? Well, everyone has an invis with fade and cloudy potions. DS? lolololol. Stop pretending like utility isn't the *most* farmed out ability to everyone. Shamans are one dimensional? So because druids can port, DS, invis, and evac..that is grounds for Druids being the only INT/WIS based class with zero recovery abilities? Thanks, but no.
Not gonna reread everything to see if u specifically mentioned it but I know a lot of druids unfairly ask for the mana regaining ability. And as for comparing the spells you were asking for them to be more evenly comparable without taking all aspects into account, that mainly shamans need to deal with.
I was asking for a mana regain ability like *every* single other casting class. This was not asking for a cleric or shaman ability. This was merely asking to be on par with every single other wis/int based class. There is no reason I have seen given as to why only druid should be singled out in this manner. Reading the thread, or just the first post would allow you to realize I never asked for any adjustment to healing spells other than unlinking sunfire and moonfire, which are two druid specific abilities. They aren't even direct healing spells.
You prob wont agree but I just feel druids get too much as it is why give them another ability? They get to heal, dps, port themselves or an entire group, evac, track, and I could think of more if I spent more than the 30 seconds it takes to write this. But point being druids get a lot already, and personally I feel a mana gaining ability would only add to the list of what druids already get. And I cant think of any class other than a ranger that gets all the utility you get with the exception of porting/evacing.
Shamans get many things clerics and druids don't. Clerics get many things shamans and druids don't. What is your point? You are not bringing up very good points as to why druids are the *only* class that is hampered in this single regard. You didn't read the thread, I get it. Now you are listing off utility abilities that are farmed out fairly easy in the form of clickies. On top of that, druids are the worst tracking class.
Good grief, you're actually trying to go there with 'druids are the worst tracking class'? Seriously? Not sure this thread has much more life in it; what's been said has been said in terms of the request being asked for.
If the druid tracking is going to be brought up as a reason that druid do not get a mana return ability..Then sure. Why not? Both are pretty silly statements. I was content to just move on from the thread. /shrug.
4 posts today (5 counting your response to mine) isn't exactly moving on. But I was more talking about the fact that the request has been made and the thread seems to just be going in circles.
This thread was dead for 3 weeks until other a couple other people posted on it, sometimes asking me a specific question. Sorry for the inconvienence.
The only thing I agree with in this is that druids need some ability to gain back mana after a death. All the mana regen in the world isn't gonna help you under rez effects, sorry but that is just the truth of it. I am a raiding druid and I am lucky that I have so many clerics that are willing to QM me if I happen to die. Otherwise I just have to pray that I didn't use my mod rod just before I died. Every single raid I can be found complaining about how every class in this game has a way to gain back either endurance (2nd, 3rd, 4th, millionth winds) or mana [so stop with the class balancing argument as well, wizards have ports and instant evac and still have a way to harvest mana] . This argument that mana regen some how makes up for all that is just silly, I would gladly take a hit to my mana regen for some ability that allowed me to heal my group after a death. Simply because often times on raids I am the only healer in my group, so if I happen to die...there goes all my silkies as well. As for survivability, I almost never get hit (other than AoE spell dmg or something). So I don't know why this is even coming up? Preincarnation goes off 80% of the time for me even when I do happen to get hit. And if I am getting hit it generally means that my raid/group is dead. There are plenty of AA's that ensure druids don't get punched in the face too often . As for comparing class heals. Generally I think this is just silly. I out heal 90% of the clerics in my raiding guild and every single one of the shamans. The thing is that lots of shamans will focus on group heals because they are far more mana efficient than single target casts. Even with canni why would they deliberately do something that is so mana inefficient? Druids have all kinds of ways to keep their mana (if they don't die) I can almost stay permanently in white wolf form for example. We have all kinds of cool AA's and abilities that the other classes don't. I am not max AA either, I only have 4670-ish, so it is not like this unattainable level that I am playing at and my raid gear is just sad. If you are gonna play a druid you gotta play to their strengths and not try and compare yourself to clerics and shamans. You will find that there is plenty we bring to the table and to call us "lackluster clerics" and "lackluster wizards" is frankly insulting.
/sigh. This will be my last reponse in this thread. I think I lack that quality to type things in a way that is easily understood, for that I apologize. I can only guess that is the issue since so many people seem to miss my point. I brought up survivability to show why I felt a rez-recovery mana tool was needed. Classes with much higher survivability still have a way to get back into the fight, while the class with some of the least doesn't. I know how to play to a Druid's strengths. I still stand by my statement of Druids are typically forced into a lackluster cleric or lackluster wizard role within a raid ( and often group ) setting. A druid is either trying to do the same job as a cleric with 1/2 the tools..or the same job as a wizard with less than 1/2 the tools. Look at our spell line up. We are either nuking to make HP bars go up, or nuking to make HP bars go down. Occassionally we toss in a debuff. We are rarely allowed a situation to let the two roles combine fluidly as the "dps priest" class. It is typically one or the other. Unlinking moonfire/sunfire would be a way to let Druids fulfil the healing/dps aspect at the same time, just like, for example, shaman fulfill their healing and buffing/adps aspect at the same time. Comparing the healing spells had no point what so ever, than to show that the heals weren't that different, and Druids need their own niche healing role. I never asked for Druid heals to be stronger, or any other class to be weaker. If you are insulted that you are generally forced to choose between being a mini-cleric or mini-wizard unless the content is trivial, or you have a lot of clerics on your raid..don't be mad at me for just simplifying the issue.
Druids should always be debuffing on raids and as often as possible in groups. Also not sure what the complaint is about not being able to dps and heal on raids.
