Charm is too strong

True and false. In Classic-Velious it wasn't broken. They definitely changed the code In Luclin-PoP. They did fix it by making mobs immune in expansions after PoP, but of course they didn't take into account that they were going to be releasing TLPs so it remains over powered in Classic-PoP.

So yea charm was busted on live in Luclin and PoP. But it definitely wasn't used often in Classic-Velious because it wasn't viable.

Exactly.. these weak arguments about how "risky" it is to charm are pathetic. I've been playing TLPs awhile now, and we would grab an enchanter in all eras whenever we could get our hands on 1 (or 2, or 3!) because of how insanely OP they were and how much faster the group would get XP, and how much harder content we could do with an enchanter because of how broken charm is.

On my raid warrior, I couldnt even hold agro off the pet, it would end up tanking and we had DPS meters running.. Pet was doing over 50% of the entire 6 man groups damage, on top of tanking and pulling agro from a raid warrior with 2 hate proc weapons and hate augs

Its clearly become a crutch for a lot of players, hence the flock of them coming to throw out their late arguments for why it should remain being the most broken mechanic in Everquest so they can continue to take advantage of it as their little crutch to play the game.

Charm is as much of a crutch as relying on procs to fulfill your role, shorten the duration, increase the chance it breaks, increase all mob MR across the board but don't just destroy the mechanic because it makes you feel better about yourself.

Wouldn't call charm a "crutch" since it's the only mechanic that requires a modicum of attention in classic, especially when it's tied to the class who has to mez and possibly help pull. A "crutch" to me would be something easy and brainless but super effective like a pile of mages pet attacking things to death. I wouldn't say charming is overly difficult but the enchanter is doing multiple times the work of any other member of the party. If he's boxing a cleric, he basically IS the party and everyone else is just leeching exp

Wrong, it was as overpowered then on live as it is now on TLP, stop regurgitating these falsehoods you are pulling from warped memories.

Of course they did but what change are you referring to here?

If you are saying that it was made stronger or weaker, then your memory is defective because that didn't happen, there were code changes of course which happened to fix various bugs & functionality.

EverQuest patch notes from Luclin to PoP below, if you are convinced you are right then how about you search the below links as Allakhazam has a repository of all of the old patch notes.

CTRL+F search charm & you tell me where you see your imagined changes?

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-2.html
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-1.html

Your memory may be that you personally never saw it used which is highly subjective, I very much doubt you had an eye on all of the other groups that were playing then so your opinion is hardly informed on this subject.

I used to regularly group with a friend who played Enchanter & he would use charm often, not all the time as we couldn't always find a Cleric, I played a Warrior then & when he died we would both blame taunt failing, but when we had a Cleric, yeah he used charm from Classic all the way to Luclin when he stopped playing, so I know it was used then.

But its sooo risky to use! Oh, and its boring raiding as enchanter, so they deserve a super OP mechanic that makes them gods in TLP!

Just thought I'd add this little mind exercise.

Imagine turning on auto-attack, with kick/bash to auto-skill and expecting that to be top tier gameplay.

That's not mind exercise, that's Everquest. Nothing about the game is or ever will be "top tier gameplay". Pretending that "x" class requires "skill" over another is such a joke.

I just want to know what would actually be hard if charm was removed completely in the first 3 expansions?

Oh yeah, nothing. It would still be easy.

I've played since 1999 in competitive raid guilds. We were not charming while leveling up at all from 1-60, charm was sort of a thing when we were raid geared and could support having a charm pet and even then it was still inconsistent and hard to deal with.

You are constantly attacking my posts, putting out rude comments, and trying to prove me wrong. I remember how the game was back 20 years ago, and people DID NOT have 5 classes support a charm pet destroying a zone EVER. The QoL changes to mana regen, AC, and whatever else makes it stupid easy to keep a charm pet. Its WAY over tuned I stand by that and no bad mouthing from you can make me see differently. So please stop responding to my posts. We already confirmed that we don't agree at all.

Also I'll add that not everything is in the patch notes, they could have simply lowered the MR of mobs, adjusted the resist check on charm ticks, the people who worked there are the only ones who know the real answer to what was changed.

maybe they won't do anything to charm because thats how it was in ERA and were talking about TLPs in first 4-5 expansions???????

The problem is that adjacent camps are often competing for spawns. The group with the enchanter will not only clear their own faster, they will often be able to pull some of yours too before you are done with other mobs.

DPS is king.

And yet on raids you can see at times fairly drastic differences in parses among people of the same class. Often with the same buffs and group. And often very consistenly from raid to raid.

There is skill involved. Often it isn't much more than simply not being lazy. But that's a skill in eq.

Well it took a while but the "skill" argument finally popped up.

Here's what my admittedly limited TLP playing experience taught me. Get in a group, there's someone telling knock knock jokes, there is discussion about whatever they're watching on Netflix etc.

It's social.

People stop and get snacks, lots of laughing and socializing.

You don't do that with a good enchanter in group, they need to stay focused to some degree of the pet will get lose and ravage them all.

The style of play I described at the beginning is one of the reasons that my friends and I started boxing and stopped EVER having a pickup group. I'm playing EQ and don't care what game is on television or what you're streaming. If I want to watch that I've probably got the game on the DVR or I can stream the program later. After I've gone /afk in the lobby for the night.

I can be grumpy I know, if you like to play casual and joke and socialize and watch other things while you're also in EQ then by all means do that. Just don't complain about people that play classes that can't let you get away with being afk when you're not actually afk

You might hit 50 a couple hours earlier. Then the people who leveled with an ench can race back to the forums and start all their posts about how 3 month unlocks is too slow.

All of this is your personal experience, AKA anecdotal evidence, it wasn't mine or the experience of others, do you know what the difference is between objective & subjective? One of them requires facts to support observations, guess what you haven't done yet?

Yes I am, this is the point of a discussion forum don't you think or do you believe debate & discussion should revolve around everyone agreeing with you?

Anyone who doesn't have a factual basis for an argument but is too stubborn to admit when they are wrong always eventually resorts to levelling insults or veiled slights because their argument is weak, it's something from you I was fully expecting, thank you for not disappointing me.

I didn't "try" though, I did because your argument is a flimsy house of cards predicated on faulty recollections that you clearly invented.

Evidently you don't remember it as well as you believe.

Where did I say 5 or five?

If even your short term memory isn't working properly how do you seriously expect people to have any faith whatsoever in your long-term memory?

I gave you the opportunity to prove that charm was made weaker, I even did the legwork of finding all the patch notes from that era for you and you completely & utterly failed to back up your assertion with any facts whatsoever, all you had to do was point it out after I gave you the resources, did you even bother checking them as I suggested?

And so you are now back to expecting people to believe you have an infallible memory with no actual evidence to support your opinion.

What is the context for this remark?

Pretty much everyone would agree the game changes, that changes made charm easier to use reduced penalties from dying made it less risky and that those you mentioned found on TLP have come from 21 years of game development, you still can't show charm itself is stronger now than it was on live originally yet there is plenty of evidence to show the gap between Enchanters & other classes, particularly melee, has been substantially reduced, and that charm was far less powerful from level 70 on.

And most of the opposition to your false-memory based argument is that it was overpowered on live, in fact more overpowered than it is on TLP currently in the classic to Luclin era of the game since the melee changes do trickle down leading to stronger melee overall whilst you claim it wasn't overpowered on live originally but is overpowered now so all of the evidence proves you wrong on that point.

By bad mouthing you mean proving you have no facts, and you are also admitting that your opinion will not be changed by the facts.

I am not required to do as you request and I have no intention of acquiescing to your demands.

Correct, not everything is in the patch notes, but something as game-changing as you are claiming almost certainly would be.

So does your 20 year infallible memory really not know, or are you going to continue to assert that it does even after saying this?

You can't have it both ways.

TL;DR - You got nothing, but go ahead & stubbornly stick to your nothing-guns.

Seriously I asked you stop quoting every post I make and making rude comments, it doesn't help the discussion, we are saying the same thing back and fourth.WE DON'T AGREE. This is not debate club. I'd like to hear from other people as well. Take a break from the forums.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-1.html
January 9, 2003
- Healing a charmed pet now generates an appropriate amount of hate for
the healer.
- Charmed pets now take up to one third of the experience for each NPC
killed. This amount scales down based on the percentage of damage to
the target that the pet does. Dire charm pets still take the same
experience they always have.
- Charmed pets are no longer selected as a monster's preferred target
if there are many players available for the monster to attack instead.

Is any of this in effect anymore? Do charm pets take up EXP? Didn't seem like it in any of the recent TLPs.

Yeah, man! We're all playing p99 for a reason!

Oh wait...

At some more recent point in time the change which caused mobs to attack PC's over pets was reverted to allow pets to hold aggro. This was generally considered to be a very good thing as it allowed melee characters to engage in combat in groups