Does anyone actually like the revive limit in Elite?

Number of lives before restarting a level has been around in video games for a long time. I personally don't have an issue with it. As a couple of people mentioned, it forces players to be more careful, and try to perfect their runs. In platform games many characters start with 3 lives, and maybe go fancy with an 1up system. In FPS at the hardest difficulty, it could be a one shot death and limited bullets. People can call it artificial, but the difficulty lies in the limited resources, where a player would not face at medium (normal) difficulty.

In DCUO, they choose revive, so be it. If a teenager is at the DMV, and it takes that person > ten tries to try to parallel park, at some point the instructor is going to fail the test and have the student re-take it.

Not a great deal of logic in that, given we get unlimited wipes. For either of your analogies to be at all accurate, the game would have to kick us from the raid after a few failed attempts... or the person dying wouldn't be rewarded if a group won without them. No one was ever reckless before the limit, when content was harder. Getting KO'd has never been trivial, people never intentionally sat in ohko mechanics, dying never guaranteed people would be able to revive you, and gear damage has always been a thing. Furthermore, there's really not much to "perfect." People know the mechanics but often die to something invisible, something that procs before the warning loads, get screwed and die to something they've clearly avoided or because of lag, or die to something unavoidable ie. dodging a mechanic only to be killed by a second, unforecast and now unavoidable mechanic (doesn't even have to be unforecast, eg whirlpool spawning directly under you as Sea Beast slams so you either die on the pool or roll and die to the slam). So now we have a system where RNG can force a team wipe.... but we get unlimited wipes so the whole "we've always had limited lives" point is essentially bs. If it weren't, we wouldn't get a good chunk into a fight and think "hmmm we lost a few DPS. Faster to just wipe and restart." Totally arbitrary and it makes RNG way too influential in regards to everything from mechanic timing, to AOE locations, to things as trivial as a stutter in someone's connection. If the wrong person goes down, the whole group may as well have gone down. Lastly, as previously mentioned, the limit also results in flying have an unbalanced advantage in elite content where it can often just ignore mechanics altogether.

If it was such a quality mechanic it'd be in regular content as well. It's a trash mechanic.

The analogy is restarting at the spawn point .. aka redoing the DCUO boss that the group wiped on. I don't mean starting the raid entirely. A revive is a soft progress point for that toon, because that toon gets to continue that attempt.

Players usually don't intentionally fail mechanics. But if a couple players didn't know the mechanics going in, 2 lives can fail the raid attempt easily, whereas infinite revives might get the group through if pickups is on point.

Anyone been in throne E groups, where at Sea beast, players unkowningly stood under Rath? I have (a number of times) and yes it caused group to wipe. People may not intentionally, once someone mentions the mechanic, it's easily correctable. But on the that initial attempt where some players perhaps was new-ish, the group paid for it and not deserving of passing that elite boss.

When i say 'perfect' (vb) your runs, I mean running with little mistakes as possible, because of the two revives.

I have another bad analogy. NBA dunk contest was this past Saturday; a contestant is allowed a limit of missed dunks before the round ends. No more Nate Robinson with infinite re-tries. And the players that do the good dunks on first or second try are deserving of better scores.

Back when video games first came out if you died you had to start all over. I do not see anything wrong with death limits. It makes players pay attention and stop pew pew pewing without consequences.

Just like out in a real battlefield. If you get killed. There are no do overs. You are done. Games are and always have been a tool used to teach life lessons weather we agree with it or not.

Death limits are not artificial difficulty. Its real life.




Just like this game here. Kids did not whine when they hit the side and activated the buzzer. They laughed, passed the tweezers and tried harder next time.

Anyone here complaining about the death limits.

When you played tag or hide & seek when you were little.
Did you scream no fair when you were tagged or did you start chasing others trying to tag them?

Did you ever play paintball?
Do you scream it's not fair or artificial difficulty there when you get hit and taken out with a paintball?

Come on people
A lot of games have death limits. We all knew the kids that always tried to change the rules because they could not hang.

Are you one of the kids that could not hang and tried to change the rules or did you keep trying?

What CR are you and how many SP do you have? I'm just trying to ascertain whether you can hang.

I dont mind the death limit, but I do mind overlapping mechanics that cant be avoided. In the case of the fight with the Sea Monster and Rath, the problem isnt to move to a diagonal position from Rath, but the platform that blocks the camera when you get near the edge or near the entrance door, I find these kind of boss rooms extremely annoying.

How did I know someone and especially you were going to say that. LOL

CR & SP are a non issue here and you know it.
It's about people not liking being knocked out and screaming its not fair. Life's not fair and thats part of life that games need to continually teach people.

And, before you go into the but but but CR & SP stuff.
Anyone with a CR that opens the gate for that instance can go into it and it is not gated by SP.

Nothing has ever been gated by SP unless it is short sighted players making a group or recruiting for a league.

Before we get into the SP thing.
Being able to understand how not to get knocked out is totally different than egotistical players trying to push the SP fixes stupid mantra and being expected to grind 24/7 for weeks/months/years just to catch up.

I know when I play sports or games. I could care less how big, how fast or how pretty anyone is. As long as they did the job and we accomplished our goal that's all that mattered. If people fell down on the way I help them get back up and we try again. I don't try to change the rules.

As a matter of fact.
I have a friend that cannot get past the Pengbot in the solo. I told him how to do it, what and why things are happening and he still cannot beat it. Do you see me in here screaming its too hard???? NOPE Why.... because I understand that you cannot coddle people every time that they fall down. All you can do is help them up, smack them on the back and tell them to try again.

The last time I checked SP & CR don't fix dumb or do instance mechanics.
So please do try to bring that weakazz CR SP argument to an instance mechanics discussion.

Yeah, small rooms screw me up all the time. It's like I CAN"T SEE!!!!!!

At no point within that post did you answer the question?

The reason I asked it was because there's a level of irony in saying other people of a differing opinion are "just cry babies that can't hang" if you're not evidently playing the content you're accusing them of not hanging in, right?

I assume then your reluctance to answer the question is that you're CR262 with decent SP then?

The question is irrelevant.

As I pointed out there's a level of irony when you call other people out for an opinion and in the process attempt to portray them as juvenile because they hold a view opposing your own.

I'll go back to your post.

"Come on people a lot of games have death limits, we all knew the kids that always tried to change the rules because they could not hang."

You then ask the question:-

"Are you one of the kids that could not hang and tried to change the rules or did you keep trying?"

What you're doing here is trying to manipulate this in to a position where you shut down discussion and anyone who holds an opposing view is left to feel like a juvenile child who "can't hang"; when in actual fact that isn't the case at all, it's a clever attempt, but totally transparent to anyone actually bothering to look at it.

The irony of course is that you seemingly aren't even running elite, otherwise why are you so coy about answering my question? I didn't even ask for your player name, I might add. I'd also say the reason you suspected someone would ask you the question shows you've given some inner thought towards what you say if the question is asked, knowing full well the context.

You could shut the assertion down entirely by just answering the question instead you resorted to copious paragraphs outlining why you didn't need to answer the question and why you felt it was irrelevant; complete and utter question evasion because you know the context surrounding why I asked it and you know what the answer reveals.

If you aren't actually playing the content you're accusing other people of "complaining about" while taking "jabs at heir abilities" in the form of "not being able to hang" it just entirely undermines your entire position when you're not actually "hanging yourself".

It would be like me trying to tell Gordon Ramsay how to cook.

The reality is, there are many elite players who don't like the death counter and it isn't at all about whether or not they "can hang" but rather that it's a very trivial mechanic that appears to be put in place to make the content harder when the content should be difficult based on the merits of the content itself. There's also an inordinate amount of potentials where this death counter can break, isn't applied properly or just leads to other issues and complaints like "can we get that stupid rez animation removed".

There was no death counter in Paradox as an example, there was no death counter in FOS2 back in the day, there was no death counter in Prime Battlegrounds. The death counter isn't necessary to make challenging content, it's simply a gimmick to apply some additional difficulty that isn't necessary if the content in and of itself is challenging in the first place.

Sometimes you get handed a lemon and you do not get do overs. It's about time everyone understood that.

Lol i love the deflection and evasion, top notch, it really is lol

This isn't real life nor is it call of duty, it's a super hero mmo, let's keep that in context shall we.

Is actually incredibly interesting that you're getting so defensive over a simple question as to your characters progression and how that might be relevant in the context of the topic, you can argue it's irrelevant all you like, that won't make it true.

It's relevant because when discussing a topic is better to have first hand experience not just come up with vague comparisons that don't even necessairly apply, i could go into more detail about why your game comparisons don't actually apply if you like and how they're apples and oranges.

You'll also note that this is a discussion about alternatives and whether the limit could be removed at no point did anyone say they are actually struggling with the death limit, just that they didn't like it.

You instead came in here and lashed basically calling people scrubs if they don't want to play by the rules, amusing that you got so highly defensive when i asked a similar question about your character in game that had the same connotations.

No one here is refusing to play by the rules they're entering into a discussion about the rules, it's a far from the immature concept you're trying to make it out to be.

This isn't about creating discord either by the way, it's about me hitting you up about what i personally see as an exceptionally flawed argument being put forward by you shutting down the discussion while adding nothing of practical merit.

Im sure you'll disagree of course and that's your prerogative

The whole argument about how other games do have death limits isn't a good comparison considering how other games rarely have the playstyle DCUO has.
Yes, some other games have less ways to revive someone, yet other games have waaaay less one shots.

Just remembering some, they are usually dps checks that end in a wipe if you fail or some mechanics that the group itself can prevent from even doing damage - like certain debuffs that kill you if you do something or not cleanse them. We cannot do that.

In DCUO it's basically "block/dodge in a matter of seconds" or die. There aren't really any mechanics that are more than that. We had a cool mechanic in Darkseids War Factory, we had some dps checks in NoR and PW, we had some enrages in HH, the Corruption in Blackest Day was cool, and that's it.

Arguing that the death limit isn't a good way to make content more challenging is totally okay. Just take normal content. Add a death counter there and it's not challenging. Still, there would be more wipes.

In the end, what do we have in this game? Back in the days there were so many (avoidable) one shots (PW, NoR) that made the content challenging without a death limit. Now we have a tank and spank most of the time with either some dodges (King Shark, Murk, Corum Rath) and some random One Shots that aren't One Shots if you have high enough SP to spec more points into health or have a well timed shield.
Both are not what we should have. Yet, there is only so much the developers can do. The Deathstroke Fight and the Terra fight are nice examples in my book. The mechanics make some phases significantly harder but are not your normal "dodge or die" thing.
Reflections are simple one shots instead of just high damage spikes no healer can counter. Instead of giving you the opportunity to dodge the bullet, you're just dead if you just accidentally range-tap. Not very creative.

We have debuff bars for us and the NPCs but they aren't utilized at all. Ultimate Soldier hat something where you needed a damage check plus conveniently a healing debuff but aside from that?
When was the last time when being debuffed by the enemy was actually something to be aware of? I mean really aware of?

The death counter itself was the easiest way to emulate difficulty and comparing it to a kid's game is comparing apples to oranges. In kids games like described by Knarlydude, they attempt to change rules because they don't want to lose. Here we're discussing about a gaming experience that can be enhanced since people who play elite content want it to be more diverse. We should be able to make cognitive arguments, kids usually aren't able to do so.

This is just a poor attempt at trying to pull a "got 'eem" on some people without even trying to understand where the actual feedback within Elite and the Revive limit comes from and WHY.

Most people don't want to remove the revive limit in Elite to make it easier, yet that is kind of what you are trying to twist things into here. What most people (based on the feedback in this thread and previous ones before it) want to achieve is the exact opposite, since we would get rid of the main core of the artificial difficulty Elite currently consists of, and be able to replace it with actual difficulty and more interesting mechanics that the Revive Limit currently hinders the Developers from implementing. Allow me to make the assumption and guess, but maybe that's where you come in.. Scared of the thought that Elites could get actually difficult?

Still trying to make excuses and trying to ride in the grey like you always do when sometimes there is a black & white with no grey. Your best comeback with any disagreement are your deflections and trying to change the subject. It never fails. You do it every time. You have no argument so therefor you try to change the direction of the subject. That's your go to bucko. I can see you coming from a mile away just like any other discussion that you are there for but no other reason to stir up trouble. You love the being the devils advocate. That's your thing. I had your number a long time ago.

I'm not deflecting at all, I'm simply calling out your arguments as being flawed. Having an opposing viewpoint and expressing that is not "stirring up trouble". It is not stirring up trouble to express oneself, I certainly don't feel like you're stirring up trouble, nor do I feel stirred I would certainly not make that allegation either, simply because you disagree with me; if you're feeling stirred then that's something on your end that I can't help you with... You really should leave that sort of sentiment out of your arguments, it doesn't promote civil debate, neither does calling people "bucko"

These sorts of allegations are ridiculous it's like accusing someone of trolling because they express a different viewpoint, it's absolutely ridiculous and only gets thrown around when the parties don't want to engage in proper discussion.

You added nothing of merit when you came in here and basically told everyone "to play by the rules and stop crying about the rules while trying to change them". I called you out on that, as any person should.

I'm not playing devils advocate, you assume I couldn't possibly be genuinely defending the opposing opinion. I actually outright think you're wrong. There's no devils advocacy going on.

I think your position is without merit, I don't think you've added anything of value to the discussion, your comparison to childhood games are utterly and entirely irrelevant. They're apples and oranges, games with entirely different rules anyway and games played in an entirely different context, games that also didn't even apply as a comparison, let's even take for example paintball; does paintball end with one shot or can it have a point system? Does tag end with one tag or can it continue until the players choose to end it... Do you see how flawed your comparisons are within the context we're talking about. I'm going to suspect not.

We're not talking about tag, we're not talking about paintball, we're talking about whether we like the death counter limit, that is what is being discussed.

And as the precedents show you, we don't need the death counter limit in place to make challenging content, so yes people can choose to have the view that they don't like the death counter despite the fact you think they're just "children trying to change the rules, because they don't want to play", if anything that's the position that's more puerile.

As for my request for your CR and SP, it was rather simplistic, it was merely to illustrate a point, either you play elite content or you don't, if you don't then discussing the merits of the death counter are less weighted.

you might have an opinion on it, sure, but that opinion then has to be weighted against your obvious experience or lack thereof with it. Because if you aren't even playing the content, other than from a purely conceptual viewpoint how can you possibly make a judgement call on whether or not you "like it" when you have no practical experience on which to draw an informed conclusion.

It's like saying "I don't like resident evil 2 remake, because I saw a youtube video" when you haven't actually played it yourself.

One of those is less informed, I'll let you work it out

you two are acting like lucifer and crowley

Oh this is very amusing. Pot, Kettle anyone? I'm making a tea to go with my popcorn.