Apex/Warzone/Halo have higher TTK than PS2, it's holding the game back to new players!

1) Calling others "salty" or "sweaty" or whatever is the most childish thing. If you disagree fine, make a case, but be an adult for goodness sakes.

2) PS2 does not need to be similar to other online games to be of value. In fact, it is it's differences as why it even still exists at all in my opinion. Its uniqueness that makes it's something people want to play. (this does not invalidate the point made by the OP I just wanted to point that out)

3) I am not sure it's the low TTK that is the issue so much as that due to "sync" issues the functional TTK on either client is not equal and somewhat almost random at times. In fact I suspect that due to how the game works under the hood, people with faster upload speeds might be at a disadvantage because they send updates quicker whereas someone with a bad connection sends update slower regardless of how fast the other guys download speed is. I believe that to only be an issue in the extremes but I think it explains why you can drop 30 rounds into a dudes noggin but he plinks you 2x and you insta die. That is all anecdotal but it comes from playing the game for years.

Just my take on it.

Low TTK helps Corner Camping/Doorway camping mostly....So the "flanker", the person who advances would actually be helped if he runs against that corner camper when he is flanking(advancing thru out the map to flank the main group/point).......Getting the drop on someone will still work/flanking still still work, except people will be able to react now a bit more....It will take a bit more skill to pull off.

Brain dead tactics? You mean Corner camping/Doorway camping, right? lol......That's what the low TTK leads to, brain dead tactics like those....with higher TTK, Rushers/Flankers will be able to advance the map easier with out getting killed ASAP by some corner camper/Doorway camper.


High TTK or HP doesn't favor the VETS in a 1 vs 1 fight against n00b, it's actually worse.....It's much easier for a vet to take ZERO damage/less damage from a n00b in 1 vs 1 scenarios with low TTK.

Like you said n00bs have bad aim/slower reaction....So bad and so slow that I can kill them ASAP as a HA with MCG and take ZERO or minimal damage to my shields...I kill them so fast, they have no time to react sometimes, so I can easily go on killstreak after killing them.....with Longer TTK that ain't happening, even tho I will still own them 1 vs 1, they will atleast do some damage to me because they will have time to aim/react.....

So no longer TTK will make it worse for vets in 1 vs 1's and it will make it harder for them to go on killstreaks/dominate, which is easy to do right now.....Shorter TTK makes the Vets way more OP, makes killstreaks super easy.


It will be easier to cap because the Corner Campers/doorway campers won't kill you ASAP....The longer TTK will give you the survivability to rush in points without dying asap and actually fighting the enemy.......Rushers would actually have time to react/fight against the corner campers, so it will makes it easier to rush in/flank points...it would add more depth/tactics to rushing a point, instead of just a bunch of corner campers killing anything that enters ASAP because their is no survivability.

The TTK should be HA(shield) + nanoweave...So +450 shield or health + nanoweave for each class.....nothing ground breaking and something we already had in game.

One thing before I start:
You compare different shooter genres with each other - Halo is an arena shooter (like Unreal Tournament or Quake), Warzone and Apex are Battle Royal games (similiar to Arena shooter) and Planetside is a massive warfare game (Battlefield alike). Different genres require different designs to work.

I think the TTK should be lowered in Planetside through buffing MGs of all kinds, to make it more approachable for everybody with shooter experience - if you played UT you can play Halo without many problems because they are similiar. That isn't the case with Planetside, as it's 90% classshooter and the 10% gunplay is purely based on arena shooters. Small battles over bases work very well, on the large scale it fails to provide the necessary flow to get fluid fights.
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Details:

1) Long TTKs are used in games that are based around competetive duels (Halo, Apex), where usually 1 player meets 1 enemy. Gaining a jump on somebody gives some advantage but leaves lots of room for the enemy to react and fight back. That doesn't scale well if you have to fight a whole group of enemies, as there is rarely a situation where fights are fought 1vs1. A counter to overcome a team that is stronger in numbers is to outsmart them by flanking - which gets less effective the higher the TTK is.

2) Higher TTKs make the battles less flexible, as it takes more effort to bring down a single enemy than it being more efficient to switch to more viable targets. We already have to focus on a single enemy to get at least one kill out of a group before going down in a hail of bullets.

3) Increasing the TTK would make most automatic weapons (LMGs,ARs, carbines and MPs) even more outclassed by revolvers, shotguns and other rifles than they already are. (There really isn't a reason ingame to run around with a MG)

4) It wouldn't be easier to defend points with higher TTKs, as the attackers also die a lot slower and it would drag out any battle even more, simply because advancing would require even more zerging for any side. The positioning in a fight gets more irrelevant the longer it takes the enemy to go down.

5) Lower TTKs would benefit new players in a way that they don't have to depend on multiple headshots with unreliable recoil calculations to get anything done (horizontal recoil is RNG based). The torso is the biggest target after all, and making it a worthwhile target would allow a better battle flow as we wouldn't be forced to dodge dance and try to shot each other's head off at every encounter.
--> I started playing Heroes & Generals again, quite similiar to PS in concept - and the lower TTKs and longer ranges there (4 to 5 body shots on up to 50 meter) actually fit the type of shooter it is very well.
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They took inspiration from Battlefield while wishing to make some sort of duel focused, competetive game. The thing is that high TTK doesn't work in combination with the large amount of players in battles, slow movement, bellow average netcode and small spaces tp fight in. (No, big open places don't count because 99% of the weapons require CQC ranges to have any effect)

Weapon statistics and their negative impact on the game are a whole topic on their own

Quite the opposite, higher TTK would just make it harder for pushers against campers. Who cares if it takes 0.2 or 2 seconds for someone to kill you when you have 10 guns all pointed at the door ? Anyone trying to push in would still get mowed down, while having even less opportunity to kill someone.

Flanking as well would lose a lot of potential, since the time it will take to kill someone gives the rest of his team enough time to turn around and kill the flanker.

Yes, but with a high TTK it makes it increasingly IMPOSSIBLE for the newb to win. It also makes it harder to spot if the player is doing anything good because you need to do the right thing for longer. So they will see themselves losing and no progress for longer, increasing the likelyhood they will leave. The one's who stick around will take longer to reach skill levels where they equal the enemy, since close skills still let the higher skilled player win due to the longer time he has to get ahead.


the correct TTK of a game is a science that isnt talked about much (and it might even be missing in many games). Because the length of time, average weapon handling, average hitbox size, average movement speed and likely modifiers all have a massive effect on how the game is played.

PS2 is for large scale warfare. If the TTK is too low (say everything is a OHK) then a single flank can wipe out entire positions and it trivializes group tactics and capabilities. If TTK is too high (say everyone as tanky as a MAX) then it trivializes individual accomplishments in group fights and makes 1v1 fights impossible to win by the lesser skilled player, even if the skill difference isnt that great.

Somewhere inbetween there is a spot where you can both reward individual accomplishments and group efforts. It may be a sweet spot where both are perfect or it might be that neither is great so you have to pick one over the other, but we should be looking for that spot.

Simply doubling the health would not be good. It would be another reason to pick LMG's. Some weapons can be vastly superior and others get nerfed into the ground through it, among other already mentioned things.

There's another point to be made here, Planetside 1 had much higher TTK and their only true downfall was being outdated.

Not true at all about doorway camping....Right now with the LOW TTK, you won't even make it pass the doorway with a couple of people camping a doorway...The TTK is so low, u literally die in .001 seconds....You can't even do damage/kill one of em.

Higher TTK will make it so if you go thru the doorway, you will be able to react to the corner camper camping the doorway.....Right now you can't even react because of the super low TTK.



Flanking would be 100% buffed with Higher TTK....it's way better for flanking.


A Flanker, a person who goes around to flank a group, would have a much easier time flanking with high TTK since they won't die with Corner Campers/etc when trying to flank.


A Flankers worst nightmare is going all the way around the battlefield, only for some corner camper to kill em ASAP, right about when they are about to kill the flanked group...It happens all the time.


So higher TTK would make a Flanker actually get to the flanking destination...It will increase the flanking chances.


TTK is so low, that it actually makes Flanking harder since all it takes is '1" corner camper just keeping the group "safe", and that 1 guy will kill you ASAP and ruin ur flanking plan....With longer TTK, that corner camper isn't going to kill you ASAP, you will have time to react, thus go on your way to a successful flanking.


BTW I want TTK for Infantry to be basically the TTK it took to kill a HA(with shield on) + nanoweave...or just HA with shield on.

LOW TTK makes it impossible for n00bs to kill Veteran Players......It makes it impossible for them to even do damage in some cases, since they don't have enough time to aim/react with such low TTK.


Let me Explain.....The TTK is so low, that if you're a good player, you can 1 vs 1 a n00b, and take no damage, since n00bs are pretty bad at aiming.....So not only will you kill n00bs, but the n00bs won't even do damage, thus making it easy for a vet to go on killstreaks and dominate newer players........That's a way worse player experience, and why n00bs quit.


I done it plenty of times as a HA with a MCG.....I go up against n00bs 1 on 1, and they do very minimal damage(sometimes none at all)....I go on a killstreak/domination over these newer players and they can't do much.......That ain't a good experience...I know if the TTK was higher, the n00bs would atleast do some damage on me, because they will have time to react/aim.


The Higher TTK, will make new players survive longer, thus they will get more kills in team firefights since they will be alive to shoot, instead of getting destroyed ASAP....it will also allow new players to react to corner campers, so they will have a chance to fight back...


Dying ASAP to corner campers is a frustrating experience for newer players, specially since they don't have map awareness like the vets do....Higher TTK would combat this.



I agree TTK is a science.....Which is why I say Infantry TTK should be that of a HA(shield on) + nanoweave or just HA(shield on) TTK.....That is a TTK that has already been in the game, and IMO will improve the gameplay much more.....Yes we would need some ammo changes for weapons to adjust for the TTK.

At this point I think everyone who has a clue can say that this goat has none.
I cant be arsed refuting everything that is wrong because its on such a fundamental level I would have to more or less teach basic logic to someone through the forums, not gonna do that.

Good luck to anyone who want to try though.

Heres a fun challenge, try getting him to post his character stats. The dudes terrified.

To make you understand a simple example:

We have OHK bullets, any hit anywhere is a kill.
The vets will use every trick in the book they have to get the first shot in. They will often get the first shot but not always. A newby will see instant results from doing something right as they immediately get rewarded with a kill. Any successful flank, accidental or otherwise, wins the newby a kill. Ofcourse its slated in the vets favor because they are vets and the newby is new.

Now lets imagine a high TTK scenario where everyone is as tanky as a MAX. The opening of the fight matters a lot less than how well you can keep dealing damage. A newby will NEVER EVER win a fight against a vet in this scenario, as the newby simply cannot keep up the DPS necessary to out-DPS the vet. The vet will score more hits and more headshots to boot, and the vet will make better use of cover and time his reloads to win any fight with a newby.

Increasing TTK randomly is NOT the way to go, especially when you dont understand the actual implications of what it would accomplish.

Also whats up with all the dots..... it makes it very annoying to read.

Do you realize you would need an absurdly long TTK to be able to do that ? To put an exemple, with a 3 second TTK a 6-man squad down you in 0.5 sec. While you would need 3 whole seconds to kill anyone in said squad. Not to mention, any chip damage you might do in these 0.5 sec interval will be to shields, which means it amount to nothing as it will recharge.

I just want to point out that if someone is camping your flanking route, something is wrong in your flanking to begin with. Most likely, you were spotted on the way, or went for an obvious way.

As I said, if someone is camping along your flanking route, then your whole flanking is busted right from the get-go, not matter the TTK. It means the enemy expected you. It means that they are waiting for you.

A good flank is supposed to take the enemy by surprise, to strike where their attention isn't focused on, and cause as much damage as possible before they can react. A higher TTK will give them the time needed to react. A 1.5 second TTK like in Apex is way more than the human reaction time, which means the one getting shot at will have the time to turn, spot you, and shoot or use an ability. Which in turn will warn all of his friends, while you already took damage just to kill one guy.

Moreover, a higher TTK would put more emphasis on skill that now. Higher TTK means more shots to kill, more shots to kill means recoil and CoF bloom are even more important to manage well. That means an even bigger gap between a Vet who knows how to compensate recoil and burst fire his weapon, and a newcomer who spray and pray.
Yes, the newcomer may have a chance to land a few hits. But said hits will be in the Vet's shield, who in turn will just wait a bit and keep going.

Actually, you're all wrong, behold!
Exhibit A:

Annnd, Exhibit B:


According to my new and even better plans, using math, if we make the TTK faster, we will gain 6x as many players than if we make it slower. Clearly my plan is better, since it uses math and pictures. I will now simply await to be crowned Executive President-Emperor of all of Sony for my genius work.

Did I miss anything, or do I need to preemptively insult potential naysayers for no reason, too?

A OHK game is basically a military/tactical simulator.....That's a completely different game than Planetside and a horrible example...A military shooter is 100% positional gameplay.....Planetside is a mix between position/twitch, and here's a better example of this.


Scenario 1: LOW TTK, 1 vs 1 with a newb
The TTK is high enough/low enough, that I can face 1 vs 1 a newbie...and he will die so fast that he will never hit me.,,I will get ZERO damage.....ZERO and go on to a killstreak and probably kill em again, that sounds like a horrible experience for a new player IMO.

Scenario 2: High TTK, 1 vs 1 with a neweb.

Instead of getting killed ASAP by me heads up, they will live long enough to atleast do some damage on me.....That's a better experience that get recked in .3 seconds by a guy and doing ZERO damage like in LOW TTK scenarios.



Scenario 3 : LOW TTK, + Corner camping/Flank

First of all, the best Campers/Flankers on this game, are Vets....n00bs are usually with the "group" of people, fighting alongside them, not flanking...So the LOW TTK flanking/camping benefits the Vets way more because it's easier to go killstreaks and shoot ppl from the back, all this will just make the new player get flanked/Camped on easier lol, thus the newer player will just die more.

So even though, a flank can happen, a n00b can get the kill/Last hit on the guy with low TTK....In the grand scheme of things they aren't benefiting from that since it's the Vets doing the Corner Camping/Flanking against them.

So yeah the LOW TTK just makes n00bs even an easier target for Vets, super easy lol, since the n00b won't even have time to react or anything(Good Vets can react).


Scenario 4 : High TTK + Corner Camping/Flank

This will be a nerf for VETS who love to camp/flank.....All of a sudden that easy target n00b, will have some time to react, to either run away or fight back....it will make engagements much more tactical for us vets....The n00b will have much more fun, since they can atleast fight back against the Corner camping/flank.

A Camper/Flanker will always the advantage tho, even in this scenario the camper/flanker should win, but the higher TTK will make it more skillful to pull off.


Scenario 5 : LOW TTK + Vet vs Multiple n00bs

Easy as hell to own multiple n00bs as a vet....Super easy, specially if you are heavy....Why? The TTK is so low, that I can multiple guys before they even land on me....and if they do land on me, I have Adrenaline shield + Assimilate....I also pull this off just by being a Simple Light Assault who likes to dodge/move alot......


So yeah the TTK is so low, that n00bs miss, and vets simply don't....Thus u can easily go on killstreaks and kill multiple n00bs.....None of this is a good experience for n00bs.


Scenario 6 : High TTK + Vet vs multiple n00bs.

It will take more skill/aim to pull this off with High TTK....Since n00bs won't die ASAP, aiming will matter way more and dodging skills will matter way more(ADAD strafing skills will matter)....Tactics will matter more as well, like using grenades/spring around cover so you won't get hit.......It will still be possible to beat the n00bs just more challenging.

The high TTK will atleast give the multiple n00bs so chance to fight back and atleast have so chance, that's much funner for the n00b, than his whole squad getting killed by 1 vet lol.


Again, stop bringing up EXTREMES TTK, like MAX TTK or Military TTK, none of that is what I'm talking about....I already said the TTK I want is HA TTK....That is nothing extreme and won't kill the game if suddenly infantry had that HA TTK...it will improve the game alot for the people who die the most, and that's n00bs.


High TTK scenarios is better for n00bs, low TTK scenarios are better for Vets who know everything about positioning and also have the twitch skill on top of that.....

I'm a vet and I want the n00bs to atleast have a chance...n00bs having a chance against me/vets instead of dying ASAP sounds like fun gameplay.


The high TTK will improve n00bs K/D Ratio, something newer players care about...If they aren't dying as much, that means they are shooting more, and considering how newer players fight alongside cluster of groups instead of flanking, is safe to say that they will get more Kills since they will be last hitting much since they no longer die ASAP.

Nobody is taking about 3 seconds....Already said TTK should be that of HA.....That TTK is long enough that I can go thru a doorway, get killed but atleast hit something, do damage...and if I have other people behind me, hopefully they enter the doorway after me and finish the job.

Right now, Entering a doorway first, is 100% guaranteed death and u won't even do any damage.....With Higher TTK atleast doorway fights would be a bit funner since you won't die ASAP and get hits on people...It's a big reason why doorway stalemates happen, nobody wants to be some of the first to get killed ASAP, and not be able to land some shots and it's because of this low TTK.



BASES are HUGE....Sometimes Flanking requires you go all away around....Guess what? sometime you run into people while going around to flank......High TTK will help the flanker deal with the person and get to the flanking destination.

Or Sometimes You flank the group(you get behind them inside the room), but there's some corner camper nearby......With LOW TTK that corner camper kill you ASAP and the flank fails....however with high TTK, the flanker might have a chance to pull off a successful flank, since they will have time to react to the corner camper...Thus the corner camper could get killed and if the rest of the group doesn't notice, you can go on a nice killstreak from behind.


Higher TTK will allow n00bs to not die asap and to no get killed by Corner Campers/Flankers which are done by Vets mostly.


Bro the n00bs are lucky to get hits on my shield right now, that's how low TTK is....I can 1 vs 1 n00bs, kill em ASAP, and they will never get hits on me and if they do, it will just be my shields lol.....If I'm HA, it's even worse for them because now I have two shields lol.....


I will go on a killstreak and kill that same n00b multiple times, that's what happens when it's super LOW TTK....They don't even have a chance to react/fight 1 on 1 heads up.


Map awareness/positioning/Corner Camping/Flanking/Twitch gameplay are all skill.....The LOW TTK widens the gap between vets/n00bs, because the Vets are better than the n00bs in all those things, thus they go on to kill multiple n00bs easily......It will be harder to pull off with higher TTK, thus the experience of the n00b will improve since they won't get dominated by the vets regularly like it is now.

You forgot about Consoles.....Warzone/Apex/Halo are way more popular than CS:GO lol.



Not to mention, CS:GO community is resistant to change and have a similar gameplay style since forever.



Look at the newer mainstream games, Warzone/Apex/Halo, high TTK games......Sorry but it's clear that this is what the people want and Game developers are listening.


It's time for DBG to see the obvious truth.

I'm quite sure that those games' popularity comes from being well-known licences and wide-spread advertising, than "higher TTK".

Your scenario's are very limited. For example players tend to fight a large variety of enemy skill levels and there is no guarantee that a vet will always get the first hits in or be in the right position. Very high TTK just boosts vets in 1v1 making them unkillable and in any other fight it becomes a DPS race of who has the most players which encourages zerg behaviour to get the reward. Very low TTK means a newby can win an engagement by getting lucky, which teaches them to try and recreate that situation.

Low TTK games tend to be more casual and accessible. An example:

Ah, no. Apex on a good day can draw a bit more than CS, but that is with the benefit of ~4x as many platforms to draw people in from vs a title essentially played on one. Infinite and Warzone, even added together aren't even in the same league.

Not that any of this matters. Pretending Planetside's PS4 branch is somehow going to attract significant players from the console market by changing TTK is the highest grade copium I have ever seen.

Yeah, not like any other series I can think of of the top of my head...

It's time for you to stop comparing Battle Royale gameplay with things that aren't Battle Royale games and pretending like you've scored any kind of points whatsoever.

Just reduce the HS multiplier for most weapons, especially CQC.

Headshots should give some edge in an 'all else being equal' situation, but should not be an "I win" mechanism.