[Vehicle] Harassers Vs Tanks - Settled with Stats

This is true, don't know how common it is, but I should think going solo in MBT is common as well and makes more sense, even if it is just done solo until a random gets in.

The general point though is that if the health/resistances make the Harasser so effective, particularly at fighting other vehicles; as is often claimed by those on forums like these. Then it should be getting more vehicle kills on average before they die compared to the other ground combat vehicles, but it doesn't. The Lightning is the exception, but only a little lower, and you just need one person to do what is almost the same amount of vehicle killing each life as the Harasser.

At the end of the day the resistances are not important at all.
**** them. What matters is the TTK.
And any full manned MBT is going to win against a full manned Harasser if we leave out skill gap.

Anyone who claims different is either a total MBT amateur or just ********. Get over it.

Theoretical TTK != in-game TTK.

Also, damage - resistance means that yes, resistances are important, even for your TTK argument.

The resistances kind of influence the TTK values. Do you understand that? Are you OK?

There's more that influence TTK though. How easy it is to hit for example. Just because infantry is a OHK does not mean every shot is a OHK. Which is why HESH is still valuable against infantry even though relying on the AOE does not yield OHK's.
Similarly trying to hit the fastest ground vehicle with a small frame will make people miss, increasing the TTK. we don't fight in a vacuum with neither party moving and every shot being a hit right?
Then there's the attack method. The person who starts the engagement has a better chance of success, and the Harasser controls the situation of almost any engagement. If the Harasser is somehow surprised it has a ludicrously high chance of escaping anything but another Harasser. Due to its speed and cross-country capabilities the Harasser more often than not controls the situation of when, where and how the fight happens. And if the fight goes badly it has a decent chance of surviving as well.

Now the stats used in the first post are stats from since the Harasser was in use. That includes when the Harasser was much more balanced, and also when it was so cheap that Harasser teams would happily suicide themselves for the chance of finishing an opponent.

Are you all high?
Obviously resistances influence TTK.
But those numbers are not important directly, the TTK is important directly.
And the TTK tells me that the Harasser is not OP, not tanky, not whatever.
Holy ******* ****.

Also called skill gap. We've talked about this.
Just because you or any other player cannot do this or cannot do that, it doesn't mean others can't.

Just because others can, does not mean it's balanced or OK. I think we also talked about that.

For example the skill gap between Harasser teams that can dodge shots and those who can't is tiny. Why? Because it's relatively easy to do.
You are actually not even responding to what I said here. I mention that there's more to TTK than just a plain 100% accuracy shooting match. Saying "ah but skill gap!" does not change that.

Also I have my suspision that if push came to shove, the skill-gap would mean you had to catch up to me rather than the other way around.

There is a reason there is more than one theoretical TTK calculation, and emphasis on theoretical.

The reason very few (none vocally) agrees with you, even those that don't want the harasser nerfed, is because you're a moron.

Ah, the classic if I don't have any arguments I'll just insult him strategy.
Your standards are so low I don't have anything to discuss with you.

The comedy writes itself.


Also, because you brought up the skill argument: https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=avendorz&show=weapons

Yikes.

Their are lots of factors that can determine who wins. Terrain tactics used affect the winner speed can help influence these.
To leave out skill gap the two vehicles would have to basically be sitting still right next to each other. (the skill lack in harraser is loosing control and getting stuck.)

I would say a vehicle that can absorb shots comparable to tank is Tanky.
If it takes 3 shots from the rear to kill a tank and 3 shots to kill another vehicle then it is tanky.

TTK is theoretically how long it takes to kill. That means it is not a fact but an estimate. Hard fact beats Theory every day of the week and twice on Sunday. If it takes as many hits to kill a harasser as a tank then the harasser is Tanky.

If the Harasser were overpowered, in a brute force kind of way, it would show in these stats.

Most of the complaints come from tank drivers who don't like the anti-tank threat of the Harasser. Most of the past nerfs effect the Harasser in every situation - rumble seat was not just an advantage vs. tanks.

Keep the health/resistances the same, but lower the DPS of the anti-vehicle guns. All guns might need a rebalance, but it would be better to do this than reduce health as health helps the Harasser in all fights not just vs. Tanks.

It has been suggested by a few people, but to make up for no rumble seat the fire suppression on the Harasser could be buffed from the current 15% over 5 seconds to 30% over 10 seconds. That would be more health recovered but at the same speed, still allowing the Harasser to harass with hit-and-run tactics.

If the Harasser is just nerfed over and over though, or even stays as it is, I think the game will lose something, as the Harasser keeps the fight fast and dynamic. When people are at the vehicle terminal, people pick the vehicles that will get them kills, and if it can't compete as its stats go lower than they already are matched up to other similar vehicles; we wont see much of it in game.

Every time I see Harassers killing things now I giggle and think of this thread, great work, keep it up

I want you to tally all the nerfs and all the buffs to the Harasser just for laughs and see what you come up with.

Also people throw "we've been nerfed X times!" Around a lot but its a meaningless statement. For example we have the following situation in the game:

Faction X and Y have a similar weapon. Lets say 100 damage with a ROF of 400.
Faction X gets a buff to 120 damage. (20% extra damage)
Faction Y gets a buff to 700 ROF. (43% extra damage)

The devs "try" to bring it back in line. They nerf faction Y to 650ROF (39% extra damage), then to 600 ROF (33% extra damage). Then lastly to 550 ROF (28% extra damage).

Now faction X says correctly "faction Y has a stronger gun!". But faction Y says "but we have been nerfed 3 times already and faction X only got buffs!". Which is technically true but meaningless.

Harassers have for most of their existance been used as cheap vehicles that you can take risks with while dictating a battle. Its not unusual to see 1 Harasser engage 3 tanks and a Sunderer alone. At first this was A-OK until out of nowhere the devs buffed both the resistances and rumble repair rate simultaneously, especially the composite armor versions became incredibly tanky.
The devs then tried to remedy this by making them more expensive, which pushed the Harasser into a careful role it was never designed for but kept their broken resistances, making fighting Harassers a chore.
Then the Chimera came out and the devs really want to sell their shinies, so instead of making people mad at the NSO stuff they claim that they tried to fix the Harasser and Valkyrie by removing rumble repair from everything. Because that's what everybody wanted right? To balance the Valkyrie and Harasser?

What needs to happen is that the Harasser goes back to its cheap status with rumble repair, but the old resistances which were fine. At that time the only complaints were "Vulcan Harassers are too powerful" and no Harasser driver complained about being weak. When the sudden update hit we already said to them to undo it quickly otherwise Harasser drivers will claim it should be that powerful. Look at where we are now.

If something has been nerfed a number of times doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed again, might have just started as very powerful - got you. I don't think I was saying that though.

The main complaint is from tank drivers and the threat the Harasser poses to them. Repairing in rumble seat was a bonus in all types of fights for the Harasser, not just Harasser Vs. Tank. In any fight it helps to give yourself some repairs in exchange for firing the vehicle's gun. So the nerf is too general in its effects, and will bring the stats on the original post down lower than they are already.

A more specific nerf would be one that effects the Harasser's ability to fight tanks, such as lower AV damage. Then giving it something else, to make sure the Harasser is dishing out the kills/vehicle kills you would expect each time it is pulled from a vehicle terminal.

Yes Harassers are a threat to them, and not an enjoyable one since the Harasser can dictate almost everything of the fight. Harasser stats are "low" because for most of their lifetime they haven't been used as tanks, but as agressive hit&run weapons that can be chain-pulled.
You know as well as I do that Harassers will not hesitate to attack despite being heavily outnumbered as long as they don't attack from the front, while you won't do that in tanks.

The rumble seat repairs wasn't the problem and I think most players will agree. It was complained about in relation to the immense resistances the Harassers had gotten out of nowhere for no reason. If we go back, waaaaaay back to the period of time where Harassers were vulnerable to attacks but powerful and cheap enough for players to still use them it will generate better gameplay for both sides. Nerfing the weapons is not the solution for that as you don't want the Harasser drivers to feel they are firing wet paper tissues (except for the Vulcan version which has been performing 3x as good as the other weapons for years).

And you've obviously never tried harasser.

No.
Almost all -H versions are slightly weaker. For example Vulcan-H has less damage after 10m and has lower accuracy.
https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/G30_Vulcan/Harasser

If you're talking about Lightning it takes ~7 sec for Titan-AP and ~6.9 sec for Vulcan (at less than 10 meters).
1/4th of the time? Haha no. Just shows how much you know.
And that's solo Vanguard, with a gunner Vanguard obviously kills much faster.

MBT from the rear (1.5x damage)
4 shots from other sides.
And rumble repairs were removed 2 weeks before you posted that.

I've auraxed Lightning, Harasser and all 3 faction MBTs.
From my experience equally skilled Lightning and Harasser is a fair fight depending on terrain, maybe slightly biased towards Harasser.
2/2 MBT has a huge advantage assuming equal skill.

That's obviously very different.

Just say you've never even tried the Harasser, don't know wtf you're talking about and are completely biased.

I don't know how far back the PS2Alerts stats draw from, but the Harasser 150 to 300 recourse change happened on the October 1st 2020 (The Shattered Warpgate Update). I put some of the Harasser weapons into Voidwell and looked at the change before and after October 1st 2020 and couldn't see much difference.

The Harasser AV guns could fill more of a hybred role between AI and AV. So current AV weapons could get buff against infantory and nerf vs vehicles. AI weapons could stay the same. Thats just my idea.

Ofc bro, been playing consistently since beta, but I never bothered to use the harasser. You know me!

https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=trspy007&show=vehicles

Dam you right, they lowered the max damage range of the vulcan by 5m and the min damage range by 10m. Also increased the cof by 0.2.

They did the same to the halberd and other weapons also I think, if you look hard enough.

https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/E540_Halberd/Harasser

Agreed, my fault; they're completely different weapons that barely resemble each other. Solid point.

I'd be quit curious to see where you got these numbers. You're right, I must know nothing because on the wiki it says 3 shots from titan ap kill any tank. That's 3x the 3.75 reload which I believed to be 11.25s as a theoretical ttk.

The vulcan on the other hand takes 75 which means around 75/525 x 60 = 8.6. I'm sure it's closer to 6.9 as you said, just don't wanna do the math for spin-up. Another solid point, it's definitely not 1/4 of the ttk, the difference is extremely minimal and shouldn't be noticeable at all. Good catch.

Yeah people complained the rumble repair makes the harasser useless, when in fact it tanks just as much damage as a tank without rumble repairs. And you can pretty much turbo away and repair safely which tanks cannot do. Not sure what you're even trying to say. Yes they removed rumble repairs....does that mean a harasser can't tank 3 shots even without rumble repairs anymore?

Well that's definitely more than me. If you think the buggy that moves much faster, has lower ttk and just as much health as the slow moving tank which flips over at every obstacle is a fair match, then I guess you're right.

Ok

I've never tried the harasser, I have 0 idea what I'm talking about it, and of course, as an infantry main I'm completely bias towards how the harasser performs against other vehicles!

I hate to be that guy, Suspended, but half your kills are roadkills and only a bit over 10% are vehicle kills. But that is still a fair number of vehicles, plus you've put a fair amount of time into other ground vehicles, so I'll assume you know your stuff regarding Harasser. Also gotta remark about the Irony of being called "TRspy007" and yet you barely play infil. IDK found that funny for some reason.

ObiVanu, I'm afraid you're just as "biased". You're nitpicking like nobodies business. TBF, I've come to find arguments on the Harasser exhausting. We just end up going around in circles, quoting fact and opinion in an effort to justify one or the other. As I've said in this very thread, "settling with stats" is both impossible with the current tools and extremely vulnerable to opinion.

If anybody can set up Voidwell or something to show the Harasser overall usage stats before and after the nerf, I'd be curious to see if any actual trend makes itself apparent. Is it just a minority bemoaning the Harassers nerf, or have its users declined in a noticeable way? Same for the Valkyrie.