No role for air

This game claims to be combined arms.

Air Vehicles.

Ground vehicles.

And infantry units.

But currently air has no role.

Every sunderer has AA guns.

Every solo ant driver switches seats and becomes an AA platform.

Harasser rangers abound.

There are AA max suits.

There are Skyguards.

There are AA turrets.

There are automated AA turrets at player made bases which are all over the map.

There are heavies with locks.

Air has ZERO role in any big battle which is supposed to be the whole point of this game.

BIG BATTLES.

But no airplanes please.

People used to say that it was because flying was just too darn hard.

But now that we have air anomolies which breifly give air a role, we see the lie put to that theory.

During air anomolies we have LOTS of airplanes flying. Not because its TOO HARD TO FLY, but because air has a role, if only briefly.

So some suggestions to include air in the major battles and stop forcing us to camp warpgates and run from EVERYONE.

Lets put a range on flak. Hornets have a range limit of 500 meters.

Lets make it so that if there is no driver, vehicle guns dont work. Too many solo ant and harasser and sunderer flak sources.

Lets make it so that flak only detonates on air equiped with A2G weapons. Presumably flak was made so abundant to combat A2G not to farm air vehicles at render range even when they have no A2G.

When the game was new all AA turrets had a dorito over them so that you knew long before you got close that you were flying toward a flak source. Put it back.

Give A2A ESF ammo based flares so that they can do their job without getting locked by invisible guys on the ground who they have no intention of attacking even if they could see them, which they cant.

Lets give libs more flak resistance.

Lets add a menu, like the friends menu so that if you are being attacked by enemy air you can open the menu and see A2A pilots who have signed up to help you get rid of the A2G.

Lets get rid of the auto air turrets in player made bases and make them require a gunner.

Lets give ESF a flak armor option like we used to have.

Lets give air back a role in the game so that it's truly combined arms and not vehicles and infantry.

Turns out people love to fly in this game if you give them a role and you dont have to be a super pro pilot to do it.

you realise automated aa turrets (or any pmb turret for that matter) operate worse than when manned ..

So who cares if we get rid of them and just make someone actually run the things?

Every Aircraft is easily armed with a A2G weapon that has more DPS, splash, and range than any gun on the ground.
Their AI weapons are the heaviest hitters, with direct fire & heavy splash.

Sunderers with AA guns, are the easiest kills to other ground units:
So if they're giving you trouble, as a pilot: Maybe coordinate with ground.
We don't expect AI Lightnings to go solo dedicated AV sources, do we?

AA Maxes; 450 nanites, Requires an immortal spawn shield. (Aggravating to pilots yes, as Flak)
1 Single second of pod burst, and it's dead; Hence why they're inside spawn rooms.
As they're also easily killed by knives or pistols, while wielding those Flak guns.

Lock-ons:
Your ESF can

• Duke it into the ground, nearby objects
• Outrun it
• Nullify it with a Full health heal instantly
• Use Flares to become entirely immune to locks , while rendering all launches missiles to self-destruct
• React when the Lock-on warning occurs, long ahead of the full lock & fire pattern

Said Heavy(ies) when the ESF had thermals: Pray to not be seen, while highlighted perfectly.


Flak is already range-limited.
If it was 500, A2G would have a more savage range advantage on top of DPS.

If 1-man vehicles become unarmed, I assume your Liberator gets a pass:
As outside of MBTs, all Ground vehicles have no driver-controlled-guns, if they have additional weapons.
It also means, to Defend a Sunderer at all, You need a total of 2-3 people, just to fire a gun.
Your ESF has the same number of guns.

If Flak was incapable of detonating when the target isn't packing the dedicated A2G weapons, What aircraft are you flying.
Past an ESF with only the A2A Nose-Gun, every single aircraft has a universal Gun.
And even the A2A Nose-Gun can nail ground targets.


Air already can avoid & attack any target based on G2A cover, being able to identify all targets you need to dodge or kill at range, Makes it easier on them to Murder ground without danger.

Your ESF can pack flares already, which grant full immunity.
If you just asked for it to be a stock feature... Then what exactly are we to shoot at aircraft with?
The 500 meter flak you want? That costs 300-450 nanites a pop, Unless we have numerous people, inside a multi-crew vehicle?
Against the 1 pilot ESFs & Liberators?

More Flak resistance on the Liberator?
Use the belly-gun... you won't need further flak resistance, if everything is dead.

Being able to request Allied Air-Support: That I'd approve.
If they'd do it.

PMBs are full of automated turrets.



Composite Armor is your flak-resistance.


Give air a role? None of what you asked does.
It just makes Air, while solo, have less threats from dedicated counters, and groups.
An Enemy sunderer packing 2 AA guns: That is a vehicle basically unarmed to anything but Air, and you want it Gimped, as you, a solo-pilot can't easily take it out.

Combined arms: Your enemy has AA guns giving allied Air trouble, Coordinate with Ground forces to take it out.
Rather than: "Your Enemy has AA, Murder it with Air. Your enemy has no AA, Murder it with Air"

If you flew you would understand.

When there are ZERO planes at any large battle, vs many dozens during air alerts, there is a reason. And the reason is flying is untenable in large battles.

Sorry you dont think anything should kill your tank.

Oh another suggestion, put a point above multi point bases. Near the skybox. Put an anomoly type sphere around it that blocks flak.

Even now during anomolies people are still pulling flak and just farming with no fear of retaliation.

I downloaded PS2, not Fish In A Barrel.

I think AV should kill a tank, and it actually does. Without needing an entire dedicated group, whom are target-practice for everything else that exists.
Pull AA, and your target not only can casually escape unless:
They're an idiot, and ran into numerous dedicated AA
They have no notion of survival, as their plane can return inside seconds


Large battles means, Tons of people.
Tons of people to defend the AA batteries from the Everything, that can casually them.
This means, the people rendered useless if an rifleman comes up , can actually survive in LOS of enemy units.
This means, with also the ability to field AA that doesn't die in a hole instantly, and people wanting to live, You get a cluster of AA.

And thanks to it having to be flak, which is ineffective, and when it's effective; It becomes instantly fatal.
We have this situation due to it not being a direct-fire weapon like AI guns are.
Instead, we have this piss-poor over-specialized shot designed To DETER an equally priced or cheaper enemy vehicle, with twice the firepower & speed of any land vehicle.

In AV & AI weapon systems, land & ground; Your gun is designed to KILL the target.
Your gun isn't dependent on your target staying inside a cloud of explosions (which it can't dodge) for an extended period.
Your gun instead when not using AA, actually cares about being accurate, rather than simply being ineffective at all times unless spammed; Which is where Flak goes absurdly strong, Erasing Air.

So, in the end.
Thanks to how Piss-poor Anti-Air guns are, for their specialized & dedicated nature, You get either

• No Anti-air presence being noticeable
• Instant Death by Sheer AA spam

We don't want to be firing flak designed for Deterrance.
We want to use a weapon that is direct-fire, and allows us by design to kill.
This bloody weapon type's need to be DOT nearly, due to Having to be Proximity-Detonation, means It's either ineffective as ****, Or too-effective.
And the shooter doesn't matter, as the Weapon can't do what AV or AI does their targets, Unless spammed.
And when spammed, it amplifies way past Sane levels: As it's a ******* AOE blast.

In short.
No, I don't expect the tank to live when fired upon by dedicated AV.
That's the point.


If you actually played infantry or vehicles, You'd understand the notion of both sides being effective.
Flak needs to be replaced.
Not Air buffed so all G2A is even worse.

Solo Pilots that can't rally allies to kill vehicles that are unable to fight off even infantry..

If that sphere, is anywhere near where an Aircraft can fire onto the ground.
You just blocked the majority of g2a fire, against FREE aircraft during the event, where they can sit immortal.

If it's not limited to events; You just made Liberators able to freely sit outside the already short range of everything, and shell the **** out of the ground.

I remember back when ranger was useless, the TR on cobalt not only pulled ground zergs to circle your base and ruin your day,
But far deadlier, they would pull air zergs too, dozens of mozzies circling the base spamming lolpods,
If I had to choose between THAT and having actual AA to deter them, i'd go with AA every time.

I say deter because that is what AA is in this game, you shouldn't be getting killed by it.
Hilariously the only weapons that can kill an ESF before they can flee are the skillshot g2g weapons,
A lightning AP round for example, or a sloooow decimator shot.

ALL of the AA weapons are too weak to kill an ESF before the ESF can flee.

LordKrelas, do you even fly, and multiple air vehicles at that?

That AI secondary weapon also takes up a slot, making you much less useful to proper 1vs1 loadouts as well as mobility which aircraft can never get enough of. Range is limited by what you can see from the air as armor and infantry are invisible beyond a certain range. Ground vehicles can see within their front between cover, while aircraft have to expose themselves to an entire army to fly directly overhead if at max render range, while always exposed to other aircraft.

Ground can coordinate easier with other ground as you make an armor column fighting at a base. Air needs to coordinate with other air as well as ground while being denied easily due to PMB shields, spawn room shields, and closed roof buildings that aircraft can’t shoot into as well as ground armor.

AA max can be resurrected and repaired infinitely. It can make use of any cover to hide or expose itself only as needed. Max can change loadouts infinitely if near any terminal or deployed sundy. A Max unit can be in places other armor can’t run them over or engage them, while an aircraft is always exposed trying to engage it while blinded by flak explosions. A Max can enter and exit any not-locked sundy for cover infinitely, and can shoot from the back of any harasser’s back seat while highly mobile. An enemy aircraft is easy to spot in the sky, while a small unit on the ground can appear from almost anywhere, at any time, and relocate.

Cover and moving out of range is the only option when targeted by AA unless you know with certainty you can kill that AA and escape with the little health left while not being instagibbed by other sources of damage in the meanwhile. Being near the ground and not moving enough leaves any air vehicle exposed to AP, rocket launchers, and small arms fire if not a lib or gal.

You can’t always outrun lockons so don’t state it as if it’s a clear counter. It isn’t.

Full health heal instantly? Fire suppression is strong but does not fully heal your health. Check your facts.

Flare shares a slot with fire suppression. Immunity to locks is very short duration, and there’s been some changes made recently, I’m not sure they are live. Lock-on launchers I believe have shorter lock-on times now too with or without stealth equipped.

When ESF had thermals to highlight infantry? How does this make any sense? That’s not true of the current game, now, in live. Thermals do not highlight infantry in any way.

Ranger can land shots up to where aircraft render distance goes. A2G has much shorter range.

Not bothering to read the rest of your post as I heard enough.

I don't fly often: doesn't mean I don't have to deal with enemy air however.
That is a constant.

Ah yes, the 1v1 Hover duel.
A2G pilots, are packing an highly efficient AOE AI nose-gun, and a secondary with also more AOE that also effectively nails armor.
Heaven forbid it takes a slot, that could be used for additional boost capacity; The poor Lightning gets 1 gun.
If it's a skyguard, every other armor just rolls it over.

Ground vehicles, if they engage, have a hard time leaving: and have to deal with terrain.
If your MBT engages , they can't as casually escape over a mountain even with the low velocity AV from infantry.
They also aren't as mobile, nor is any land vehicle past a harasser (whom still has to deal with terrain, limiting their boost)
Yes, the ESF or air is in the sky: That thing also has 3-dimensional space to move in, and outside Valks & Galaxies, have built-in speed-boosters.

To engage air, Ground has to coordinate, and every AA unit is incredibly vulnerable.
Your A2G ESFs attack by themselves solo, without even speaking to their local forces.
They attack anywhere & everywhere silently.
The Liberator is mostly piloted by Solo players, rather than constantly full:
Unlike MBTs, which not only are most effective at 2\2 status, but are Pulled to be fully manned.
As they actually reliably die when piloted by a single operator, and they are the same price as the Liberator.

Spawn-Shields, making it too easy to nail Air from invulnerability is a problem yes: Again, Refer to why we need to replace flak.
Closed Roof Buildings, can't engage Air all that casually.
Heaven forbid the lone wolf ESFs, are having a hard-time, being the most pulled Air, that can engage any target across the map inside a minute.

That is a 450 Nanite MAX: That is more expensive than your ESF
Your vehicle can be constantly repaired, with hit & runs: Your vehicle has built-in auto-repair.
Your vehicle can equip a 50% instant heal.
And the 450 nanite max being able to be revived, a process that takes longer than Your kill of said max, is a problem?
Cover vs an Aircraft: You have 3-D Space to work with, making a lot of cover void:
Flak also works on constantly-hitting the target, Having a wall in the way kinda makes that hard: Mind you, Your own AOE weapon(s) also work on the Max.
Being able to blind shoot with Flak, is however, Due it to being Flak; Again Refer to where I say Replace it.

If you can't outrun a Lock-on; You aren't flying an ESF.
Your base speed can leave a Hex, Your Built-in Booster can get you across it even faster.
What bloody lock-on are you expecting?
Infantry don't have the perk of a reliable counter, past hiding in a spawnroom, from dedicated weapons.
Vehicles don't even have that, against an Enemy aircraft with AV guns; Liberator just says "Die"
If Air engages a land unit, It has no options if it's a vehicle, and Infantry rely on a Solid structure happening to be nearby in time.
If land engages Air, That air can disengage at will.
The only time that isn't accurate, is typically when Flak is spammed-en-masse.

Which again I mention as a reason to replace Flak.

Fire-Suppression at half-health, is a full heal.
It is the highest health restore on vehicles, In most cases, It's a full heal.
Unless you basically just barely lived, due to losing 80% of your damn health.


Flares are a hard-counter to lock-ons.
If you had both, the short-range of Locks, would be even less useful.

As he wants to put literal indicators over the head of any AA unit: Thermals used to highlight infantry.
This was used to quickly flash to see & kill any Heavy with a Lock-on, that had LOS, rapidly.
With his wanted markers, It's a death sentence to any Infantry not in a cluster-****, to be mauled.
Air has a fast TTK, on infantry.

Ranger.
Lovely, 1 flak gun, likely the Harassers' version.
The rest is unable to even protect the Hex.

Krelas your walls of text arent helping. We get it you are opposed to air having a role. Duly noted, and thank you for your response.

To liewec, none of these changes would re-create the fish in a barrel scenario you mention.

That is currently the situation that tanks enjoy.

I'm not advocating for anything that helps A2G esf to the point of making it shooting fish in a barrel.

Thermals no longer highlight infantry.

Invisible heavies with rocket launchers can insta gib ESF. Had it happen to me last night at an air anomoly. I chased an enemy ESF a little too close to the ground and suddenly im getting locked by invisible players. turns out it was 3 or more heavies because i instantly went from full health to rubble.

Combined arms means you need to bring your airforce with you.

If you show up to the fight without air support and your enemy has it, you lose.

Thats what combined arms means.

An A2A esf will kill an A2G esf faster than it can kill anything on the ground.

Currently we have a situation where you dont need air at all. Just bring a ton of flak.

You dont even have to sacrafice anymore to do that.

Previously only the skyguard had decent flak abilities. so you had to bring skyguards.

Now every roaming ant has a flak cannon on it, and most sundies do as well.

These vehicles are cheap and very hard to kill with A2G.

Last night i joined Hisoka's air squad, because i was trying to play infantry but the tanks and kobolt ants, sundies and harassers were farming me.

With 12 of us we were unable to do anything against the vehicle zerg. I died to flak several times in under a second trying to do strafing runs with hornets.

"Thanks for the group," said I, "but im gonna go back to avoiding battles so i dont instantly die all of the time."

I agree with Silkens that Anti-Air is too saturated. However, the new environment forces a change in tactics and approach.

There is no way to effectively attack ground in any iteration (solo, duo) than a full squad or more.

I have been flying Connery VS Air squad with Hisoka, Grisha, etc. and we are only successful because we had an "Anti-Air" suppression element. In other words, you now need multiple ESFs to simultaneously attack Skyguards, Rangers, Burster Maxes, bases, etc.

those who are in the process of building them ...

but nice to see what an egoistical skyknight you are
your response to krelas more than shows that .. no roleassumtion my butt ..
the general airgame is busted in many ways
the controls are shi tty, a2a weapons do barely any damage, require a long locktime or are easily dodgeable ..
and as liewec mentioned EVERY dedicated ground aaweapon at best deters aircraft, they do not enough damage to kill a esf quickly enough .. true aa destruction requires skillshots ...
if all you do is hover above ground then you should not be suprised ...

the biggest problem with air still is the entrybarrier and that is magnified by how many pilots are veterans than new players or novices ... because most of these will stop flying for the frustration that that learning progress brings ... and you can shout gid gud all you want ... why suffer through that procces when there are more fun areas to play ... why should you have it easier to mow down infantry but others are not allowed to engage or defend against you in a fair way .. ?

and don't ask me if i flew or not, i did .. and it's shi tty controls give me fkn wristpain and aiming with the nosegun or any weapon for that matter is a massive PITA ... so i stopped bothering ... i invested certs into my VS esf for jack ...

Well, first I love ESF's, but there's also other air vehicles around, and Libs v Tomcats really have been an issue. AI weapons used to be more brutal. And I never liked tomcats, and now other players will complain.

Not sure bout the Worm, we'll see.

I often see the presence of one faction's air over a fight, like it's 4-6 mossies mostly banshee, then add a couple Libs, couple valks, Gal waay up there. Maybe changes completely around during the fight to the other faction swooping in, love that stuff. Tomcats were too strong v Libs, and already nearly useless 1 v esf, and best used by gank squads, and still can be.

I guess this is a Combined Combined Com Arms game, and at sometimes everything in game is a square peg, or you finally get to see that you actually have 10+ lock-ons on your tail and gulp. A LOT of Combined anything, is still a LOT. This is great stuff, do not be discouraged. Enjoy flying first, play with it. Stay alive longer sometimes by spotting enemy, checking things out, see where and what enemy is, offense /defense can mean a lot.

Pilots in this game have emotional problems, they suicide more than most, it's sad.
As esf I often choose to be Lib escort or shadow. Lib is much stronger with a 2 fighter escort, etc,

People, infantry, vehicles, air complain about each other, it's war.

the one thing that combined arms doesn't mean is to have a particular type of vehicle always with you ... instead it means that a mix of units and vehicles are capable of covering each others weaknesses engaging a different mix of units and vehicles

Air has no role. Vehicles counter vehicles. Vehicles counter air. Vehicles counter infantry.

Combined arms means infantry vehicles AND air.

Not vehicles and infantry and no air allowed.

Yet at large battles we have no air.

Even when you get a group of 12 pilots spending over 3k resources its impossible to do anything vs every vehicle in the game having flak.

If you are infantry and there is a vehicle zerg at the only big battle, because these days there is often just one, there is no counter to the farming vehicles.

If you try to counter them with a lib or an AV ESF you will get hit with so much AA that the only choice is to fly away.

Ants with rangers and walkers.

Sunderers with rangers and walkers basilisks.

Harassers with rangers and walkers.

Tanks gaining elevation with hills shooting you with tank rounds that do 50% damage.

INVISIBLE Heavies with lock-ons.

Max units with bursters.

Skyguards.

Player made flak nests.

Not to mention that if you try to do a2g with an ESF small arms fire does serious damage as well.

Thats why you see maybe 4 or 5 planes of ANY type in the air at any time. But you have dozens of vehicles at every major fight.

On top of that every flak source other than skyguard is cheaper than an ESF and half the cost of a Lib. And none of them require a driver except the skyguard which should be the main anti air platform.

Why even bother with skyguard when you can pull a cheaper harasser ant or sundy and do the job just as well?

I was flying with hisoka the other night, and even with the 12 of us i was still dying just trying to do full speed hornet strifing runs.

With racer at full speed and then afterburning away i was getting melted.

No counter to the vehicle zerg except a vehicle zerg.

Until there is actually some form of effective AA in the game (and no, being a 'deterrent' does not count), I will have little to no sympathy for air players.

Sorry.

I said this years ago and I'm still saying it now.

Everyone is running AA because the problem is the aircraft. Everyone feels like they have to run it or risking being killed with no warning and no chance of escape or fighting back against aircraft that are the fastest and hardest hitting vehicles in the game.

If aircraft want a "presence" in a fight then that presence can't be the instant end of said fight.