How are we liking the Archer? (Also some data in here)

The Denier of Exosuits. The Plinker of Armor.

The One True Primary.


Post-patch, I am for the most part satisfied with the Archer's new performance. It's a lot more viable as an all-purpose primary that sacrifices some AI potential, rather than being way too good at smacking MAXs and meh to decent at anything else. I also like how flat resistances have been removed, so now I get that larger hit marker that only starts showing up at 250 damage. It's just satisfying. I feel like I'm dealing a small chunk of damage to tanks rather than a plink.. which is actually the case in practice. But aesthetics and enjoyable usage is what's important here!

I would like to hear how my fellow enthusiasts are liking their improved tool of choice.

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I did a ton of shots-to-kill testing in VR. I'm no Iridar, but I'd say I've collected some decent data.

Some things to note first:
-The headshot multiplier was increased to x2, up from x1.5. This helps with getting alpha damage on medium range infantry. Now a little more useful at telling a sniper why they shouldn't mess with you.
-It's ranges have been altered a bit. Previously 400 @10m to 300 @125m, it is now 400 @25m to 200 @200m. This is slightly better when engaging ground vehicles directly, but really hurts it's effectiveness versus aircraft, who are often in that 100-200m range.
-Past 25m, it now has a tiny bit of AoE. No idea why this was added, but I'll take it. On a direct hit versus infantry, it deals an additional 100 damage. This indirectly improves its shots-to-kill versus infantry at longer ranges than before due to having a flat addition to any direct hit. Though when hitting a vehicle, it makes the impact sound a heckton louder to enemy bystanders, which I'm not a fan of. No longer a "don't worry about it guys" plink.

(Random fun fact: the Archer destroys terminals in 2 shots at close range. No more wasting time switching to Infiltrator or magdumping)

Disclaimers:
-I tested in VR with the range finder implant. Of course I could've done the math, but I'm not super knowledgeable on all the resist types and vehicle health pools.
-Some things could be off by a couple meters.
-I didn't do any in-depth testing on the previous iteration, so I can only draw from experience and guesswork.
-When thinking about time-to-kill: assuming no human error, it takes 10.25s to empty a magazine + long reload and 6s to empty the mag by itself.

ESF
This one was the main reason I decided to do some testing, as I noticed it is a lot weaker against them now. Pre-patch, the Archer was a solid choice for damaging fighters. 6 shot kill up close, and 7 or 8 farther out. Unfortunately, the greatly reduced minimum damage nearly halves its ranged effectiveness in this field. This is the only one I tested at all ranges, shown here:

6 shot kill within 30m
7 within 76m
8 within 113m
9 within 142m
10 within 164m
11 within 187m
12 @188m and beyond

I didn't blow hours doing the same test on everything else. So I guess use this one loosely as a measuring stick for how much it degrades over distance. Basically it deals half damage at 200m and beyond.

Infantry
It's definitely received a straight upgrade in this department. The splash doesn't do meaningful damage, but it can pause the target's shields on a failed direct hit at the very least. Still better than nothing.

-Contrary to before, the Archer now perfectly kills in 2 headshots even at minimum damage range. 2([200 * 2] + 100)
-Now a 3 bodyshot kill up to 139m. This is a pretty big improvement, as previously it would start dealing 333 damage somewhere in medium-long range. (My calculations say ~95m, but I could be doing the formula wrong.)
-It can also pull off a 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot up to 124m, which it couldn't do at all before due to the low multiplier.
-Versus Infiltrators, it has a 3 bodyshot kill at all ranges. When at max range, the damage lines up perfectly, so any regen done by the enemy (or an auxiliary shield) will add a STK. The infiltrator also needs 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot within 156m. <<That's the most useful info, as countersniping and then following up with a regular hit will actually take out the nuisance rather than telling them to take five.

MAX
I think we can all admit that the Archer was (and still is) a bit of an "off-switch" counter against MAXs. Being a bolt-action makes it even more pronounced since the Engineer can limit exposure, making a 1v1 success very likely (in my experience). It's a little toned down now, but it's still quite lethal to them.

-Now a 4 shot kill out to 60m. Previously 3 out to somewhere past medium range.
-Due to the multiplier upgrade, it retains the 2 headshot kill, also out to 60m.

Flash
Things are more or less the same in this field. The added splash damage might've improved things a tiny bit.

-3 shot kill within 76m


Harasser
I appreciate the improvements here. I found it odd that the Archer was pretty effective on all light armor except for Harassers. The damage was improved enough for 2 magazines to take one down in common ranges.

-9 shot kill within 53m. Previously 12-15, according to the wiki.


Sunderer
Remember it taking at least 4 to 5 mags to down a poorly/unguarded sundy? Well no more!

-Now a 14 shot kill within 47m. Retains a 3 mag kill over a good distance.
-A frequent strategy of mine is to plink it 3 times and then detonate 2 C-4. Haven't tested, but it's likely possible to do it in 2 shots now, cutting down on precious time.


Liberator
I remember saving the Prowler I was gunning for by hopping out and surprising the Lib that was already under AA fire. Dealt the killing blow before the belly gun could finish us and afterburn away (you know, the usual AV Lib strat). And that's the story of the only way I get friended in PS2. I gun for people and apparently I do something right. ...Anyways, Archer was good on Libs before, and is a little better now. I didn't get much playtime in before that hotfix, but that negative resistance must've been devastating.

-13 shot kill within 41m. You're probably only gonna get 1 mag in, but it does a good portion of damage. Especially if they're already under fire.


Lightning
On to tanks! You better bet I plinked tanks when it wasn't viable. Now though? This thing is an actual threat.

-13 shot kill within 42m.
-7 rear shot kill within 63m. You can one-clip a damaged tank in the right scenario. Not bad, not bad.


Prowler & Magrider
Same deal. Huge improvements. You can actually engage the largest ground threat and be a problem for them. Rear armor shots hit really hard for a weapon who's accuracy isn't restricted by range.

-15 shot kill within 38m
-9 rear shot kill within 71m


Vanguard
It's kinda impossible to test the shield by myself. But that's why we have math! While shield is active: Front armor is 200% more durable, and side armor is 66% more durable. (Feel free to check my math, but a 66% and 33% resistance translates into needing x3 and x1.666 more shots, respectively.)

-19 shot kill within 32m
-10 rear shot kill within 47m


Galaxy
Sorry but I was getting burnt out and didn't feel like ammo dumping for 10 minutes to find the optimal range. As with pretty much everything else, STK has improved here as well.

-21 shots to kill at close range. Better than before. (29-34 according to wiki)


Since there aren't any sitting around in VR, I completely forgot to test on the Valkyrie. I'd say it's just about the same based on experience. Which is pretty good. Except at long range due to the new fall-off.

Overall, I like it. It's a tank fighter. It's a MAX swatter. It does everything but kill other infantry in a timely manner, and that's a tradeoff that I accept.


Hail the Archer, the One True Primary.

I have already encountered Archer squads up on a high rock near ZenoTech Labs a while back.
Archers up on canyon wall and high rocks harassing armor below with high speed and pretty substantial chip seems very effective at disrupting armor below.

It feels like a being attacked by the Mana AV turrets of old almost.
Entirely powerless and difficult to even pin down where the fire is coming from often.
Overall a pretty bad feeling.
I dont want to say its a actual problem yet since I really lack the in game experience of dealing with them to call them problematic.
Im hardly one to call foul over something that has happened to me properly once ever really.
Its might be a issue. Really I cant see why It wouldn't be a problem.
Assuming we could agree this activity could even be problematic. Thats a open debate still.

Just two guys mag dumping into a tanks at long range is a substantial threat that has to be avoided or dealt with.
Id imagine a squad in on top of the canyons of indar shooting down around Tawrich would be devastating and very hard to deal with in a defensive situation.
Really a good group of crack shots would even have a good light anti air defence without support.

Also it would be pretty easy to get sundie support with AA to a lot of these spots id suspect would be great.

Giving everyone a infinite ammo low damage lancer was a mistake.

As of now it deals half damage past 200m, so it's not as bad as the Lancer squads of old. I can see it being a considerable threat over a wide radius, but not instadeath at render range kind of problematic.

I very very rarely see someone else carrying an Archer on Emerald. If there are more users out there than I've noticed, I would love to get a full squad of it and see how much destruction we can cause.

And while it's pretty hard to miss with it, aiming does have an ever so slight CoF (0.05 / 0.15 / 0.05 / 0.25). Throws off a tough longshot every so often for me, but it's mostly accurate.

Im on Emerald as well and they are a rare sight among the NC. But of course it only just got buffed for this hypothetical role of anti tank musketry style volley firing.
It might take a couple of weeks for people to start buying them and getting the hang of them as a light anti tank weapon.

It would be worth revisiting this topic in a few weeks to see if this catches on.

Yes, lets' make sure it's ES, so only one side actually has ER Weaponry.
Then hand one side only Short-range weaponry.
Oh wait.


As for the topic;
Archer sounds lovely.
Glad I wasn't the only one hitting tanks with it.
Sad about the ESF though, that's gonna be a ***** to land that many more hits.

The Archer has been nerfed against base turrets. In the past you could destroy a turret with 15 shots/3 mags now it is much more (25 shots at least).

Not everyone, just engineers. And they are not given it, they have to buy it. Engies used to have an effective AV function in the Mana Turret but those days are more or less gone now. I grant you, they are less of a sitting target with an Archer than stuck on the end of a mana turret.

Seeing as it was released as an anti-max weapon, nerfing it against maxes makes no sense to me. Overall it's still a decent all rounder with the exception of ESFs. I've killed loads of ESFs with the old archer but the new one is useless for this.

Not only does it do less damage but the velocity has been reduced making it near impossible to land shots on moving ESFs like I used to.

its also far harder to hit things with than a lancer low velocity and pretty heavy bullet drop over range.

I can drop a prowler to half HP from the back from 200 meters away in one clip. Does anyone not think this was a bad idea?

and you aren't also carrying an LMG, you only have archer and a sidearm

in short, not really comparable

its a good job everyone cant instantly become an enginner at no cost then.........wait.

And please, 1000 certs is a crumb of biscuit.
Upon the eventuality of everyone having everything, how will you balance things then?

I was using it before I took my 18 month break. Back then it was very limited in its use. The only thing it was actually useful for was shooting Maxes. For vehicles it was pretty much worthless. Didn't realise it had been improved, I haven't noticed much of a difference, the only way to get a kill is to be lucky enough to get the last shot on something though the pilot will have bailed by then anyway.

What struck me before was how awful it was compared to the Mana AV turret which was ridiculously OP . Haven't seen so many on my return so I guess they have been nerfed a bit. At the time a Mana AV turret was more effective than a base emplaacement which makes zero sense IMO.

Base emplacements are still way too weak. Vehicles should be scareed to go near them except in numbers but right now a single tank can roll up to a base safe in the knowledge that he will get the base turret down before it can really do any damage - *** backwards.

Great thread Sazukata! Really appreciate all the data and info you collected, will be helpful.

I am a fan on the archer having found even before the update that I prefer it to the AV turret because of its excellent sight and easier use. Afterwards seems to have made it a great sniper option for inf battle to, if your smart about were you shoot from.

Its nice the engineer class has got this option, can feel very out gunned sometimes compared to other classes. The archer provides a bit more fire power and lot more options for targets and combat roles.

I have noticed more NC using the Archer on cobalt, has given us a better chance of shifting dug in VS Mags and TR prowlers when there closing in on a base. Makes both the low and the high pop battles more interesting and less one sided towards a zerg since the enemy tanks cant just park and bombard at will with out fire from archers.

And yet, I still don't see ravening hordes of engineers (i.e. "everyone") sweeping across the battlefield brandishing their "free" Archers............nor would I think 1,000 certs to be a trivial amount to some players.

No, the implication that everyone can or will start turning up with a particular weapon was the suggestion I challenged, it is too much like the other "OP plz nerf" cries that you get before something has really been put to the test (IIRC there have been a couple about the Daimyo already as well).

That said, they still changed the Lancer.

So I gather, although I haven't used it since the patch so I don't know the practical effect. I believe the effective range is reduced but I'm not sure what else.

Just because something is OP doesn't mean you will see everyone doing it. Archer like the Lancer are very capable at wiping out armor in groups at range but requires strategy and coordination which the Vanu can pull off but the TR and NC are not capable of. They prefer something OP and mind numbingly easy to use like Vulcan harassers or shotgun maxes. If they were smart you would see tanks starting to explode at 12X range. Or you might see squads of infiltrators abusing the large buff to explosive crossbows. But you probably won't. They still way over scaled the things they gave "a little" AV damage to. Besides the massive number of folks that invested and are used to playing heavy and light assault are not going to up and switch to engineer right after they got huge boosts to their own AV capabilities.