Heavy Assault Rant

Well it's certainly being used but I hardly see that as a bad thing. It's a combat class verses utility classes, it seems unrealistic that utilities should be as good at combat as heavies imo.

If heavies lose kits then why not all classes? If anyone would be using them it would be your frontliners. Why the pistol? That's a sidearm, they have a sidearm because of the long reload times, there shouldn't be a moment where you're completely defenseless as a combat class, why should medics have pistols if that's your reasoning? And yea,medics do heal you, they revive you if you screw up, nothing a kit can do about it.

Math was close enough.

I'd also like to add that the average dps for guns is around the 750 rpm 143 model and the 600 rpm 167 model, you should probably factor in CQC oriented weapons as well as midrange, since that's generally where you ambush.




If anything were to be taken from this discussion, I would hope it's that medkit tanking is annoying and stupid. The heavy does have a lot of sustain solo but not enough to warrent a nerf, medkits however could do with a nerf to make the medic a bit more prominent like say 5 second wait after a hit to use it?

I can get behind that. Perhaps a cooldown on medikits of a few seconds, or a sharp drop in speed when used/held in hand.

Sharpe, one of the best LA I've ever witnessed (in game and IRL) would make sure he had a medikit equipped and in-hand during any moment where he suspected he might take some damage. A few hits, pop the kit and then return fire - target was down. Just to be clear, it wasn't a magic I-WIN button, the guy had excellent aim and could spot an enemy through all kinds of noise, but it certainly acted as an equalizer, allowing him to recover from situations where he was caught flat-footed - and most likely would have died otherwise.

Your condescending tone is cute, but here's the issue with Heavies, again, any Heavy Assault with half a brain can react to a flanking infantry unit by using their panic shield and essentially negating any advantage that flanker had. The only exclusions are when that flanker is wielding an incredibly fast TTK weapon(shotguns). I'm simply saying that the HA's shield should have a charge up delay so it can't be used to react against someone who SHOULD HAVE THE KILL BECAUSE THEY OUTPLAYED THEM.

Note the caps are not because im frustrated, but instead function to hammer those words into the brains of people who refuse to actually pay attention to what im saying.

HA is poo..... Lumpy poo... with no smooth outline or form. HA is just ruff bumps that feel smooth but aren't. I have no scientific facts or mathematical formula for my argument. So what I'm really saying is HA is **** (complete ****)

I like the idea of shield or rocket launcher. Rockets should also use nanites like every other dam explosive that infantry carries in this game. And not be reloadable by ammo packs. Seriously wtf were they thinking with that?

I get it - you think it's unfair. I used to get frustrated with it - I'm sure many do.

But ya know what? HA are dying all over the shop because many folks have also learned that outplaying a HA includes knowing that a HA can use their shield to mitigate getting flanked is part of the game. It doesn't make them immune to getting flanked, and folks do get the drop on them.

But just because you get the drop on a HA doesn't hand us the win. You see it as a problem. I see this as a feature of the class.

It's completely unfair that Heavies are so powerful. All other classes should be able to compete evenly with Heavies after players have spent so much time level grinding them and questing, and raising them from a level 1 character.
Wait?
What's that?
You're saying that there's absolutely no time investment required in playing any given class, and you can change classes at any time? Well, then, I don't see the problem.

There are many different situations that are suited to the talents of each class... the fact that the Heavy is best suited for most situations... IS NOT A PROBLEM, 'cause anyone can play a Heavy at any time. And when a Heavy is not best suited for the job... anyone can play something else. In fact, any time that there's a job suitable for Heavies, it's also suitable for Medics, Infils, and Engies, 'cause they are force multipliers for Heavies.

Do you mind? Your rational consideration of the larger scope of play provided by a 'combined arms*' game is messing up our 1 vs 1 duelling balance changes!

*..granted, it's far from perfect!

Okay yea, anyone that has played for an hour knows that Heavies have a shield and presumably it can be used to counter flanking, what do you do to counter their shield while flanking them though? Also I'm not saying getting the drop on a HA should "hand" you the kill.

Okay by your reasoning if a nuclear missile that instantly gave you the win over a continent was available in-game, but everyone could use it, its okay, because everyone can use it. Also I'm baffled you say that any job Heavies are suited for every other class because they essentially are slaves to support them. The game should not revolve around one class, it should need every class somewhat evenly depending on the situation, the Heavy Assault on the other hand excels extremely well at every situation. Also due to the high ammo reserves that LMG's have(some exclusions), you don't really need an Engineer, due to being able to spam Medkits you don't need Medics too terribly bad either(also if you stack a regen implant your need for a Medic decreases even further), and I'd like to know how a Infiltrator supports or "multiplies" a HA's capabilities/power.

Sure, theres no time investment REQUIRED for classes, but for the normal people who don't have all the time in the world, it takes a long time to get new gear for just one class. However this isn't really relevant and i don't understand why you brought this into the conversation.

I main engineer as my primary infantry class and I never had trouble dealing with heavies. 19 times out of 20 when I lose a gunfight to a heavy it's either because I did something stupid like engage him head on while he already had his shield up and weapon shouldered or the guy playing the heavy assault is just straight up better than me and would have won that gunfight regardless of what class he was using.

Now there is that 1 time out of 20 when I do everything right and still lose the gunfight because the other guy just had more health because of overshield, but you know what, every class has the potential to create such 'I was doomed to lose' moments. I've got quite a few colorful tells when I got into fights with BR 120 heavies, exchanged some rounds, ducked behind cover to recharge and let my loyal Spitty finish them off. Sometimes they'd kill me but Spitty would avenge me post mortem. Or when taking cover behind an AV turret, jump inside and land a lucky rocket in CQC, insta gibbing the heavy. Or instead of shooting him with my Carbine, throw a sticky grenade at him, have him run away into a group of his friends and result in a nice killstreak. Or baiting the heavy to chase me around the corner where a strategic Claymore is placed. You just have to know how to use the tools of your trade.

Or heck, it is possible to just straight out out gun the heavy. Stat wise, LMGs are the worst weapons in the game. Carbines and ARs have lower recoil, better handling, often times more DPS and thus lower TTK, in some cases better mobility in the form of 0.75x ADS and much better hipfire. It is possible to brute force your way with a carbine against a heavy in cqc- use hipfire and ADAD. With his shield raised and weapon shouldered, the heavy will be 4 times slower than you while hipfiring, making him an easy target for you while you're a hard target for him.

All in all I don't think the heavy is OP. He's good, sure, but not to the point other classes are not viable. If anything, I find laggy SMG cloakers who, because of how clientside works, start shooting before they even decloak on your screen to be way cheesier than heavies with overshields.

Would definitely support a nerf to medkits in the form of a re use timer instead of just making them un usable for heavies though. Medkit tanking is not a heavyside issue, it's a game issue.

The problems with heavy assault run much deeper than versatility

Hasn't HA tears already grown a briar patch?

Mhh... that would make medics more usefull, would remove the "pop a kit and enjoy twice the health" and reduce server bandwith requirements.

The meta has changed radically over the years. The HA is much more effective in the current meta than it was in early metas.

Any unit can be made pointless by nerfs. That doesn't mean that no unit should be nerfed.

A highly used unit can be nerfed and still see high use. The current HA is still being heavily played despite "nerfs", I expect it could be nerfed further in some ways and players would still use it.

Why shouldn't the game revolve around one class? I see Planetside 2 as a fight to get your teams heavies where the enemy doesn't want them to be.
Sure, Heavies might not need Engies and Medics in any given instant. In a longer, protracted battle, however, they're vital. Besides, don't recall anyone rising from the dead with a medkit. Also, if you stack a regen implant, your need for any implant that isn't an implant increases even further. It's like saying MAXs don't need Engie support because they can just take auto-repair.
As for Infiltrators? Are you serious? Last I checked, Heavy Assaults can't pull Sundies from enemy vehicle terminals, and have a pretty hard time with knowing where the enemy is when they can't actually see them. Even at the most basic, an Infiltrator or LA can have defenders looking in the wrong direction for a few, critical seconds.
The time investment point is very relevant. It's explaining that while HA might be the best choice in most situations, that's not inherently a problem. If people had to commit to a single class, like this was some traditional RPG, then yeah, they should all be balanced. They don't, though, which is why there's no problem with Heavies being the default Go-To class.

An ideal squad consists of one Infiltrator for radar and pulling Sundies, two Medics for revives, one Engineer for ammo, then the rest of the squad as Heavy Assaults, maybe with some LAs as situation or personal preference warrants.
That's the ideal squad. Four supports, and eight Fighters (almost always Heavies). There is no reason the game should be balanced so that every squad ideally consists of two of each class.

no it hasn't.
everything is pretty much the same.

what do you think has changed that makes heavies so much better now?

The game used to have large number of Infantry involved in combat at all distances from base, from all directions (no Lattice), and in all terrains. This made Infantry support Classes more impactful, and made range Infantry AI Weapons (Snipers) more impactful across more engagements.

The game used to have much less ways to find and/or reliably and quickly kill Deployed Sunderers. This also supported the greater proliferation of Infantry.

The game used to be non-Lattice, such that battles developed across multiple and wider fronts. More flanking and more range battles, with less incidence of enemy Infantry running across ally position (CQC and heads-up Infantry combat) simply because they are both in a straight line between bases (which Lattice does).

* Infantry is clustered more around bases than before
* Vehicles are more dominant and make up a larger % of Pop in spaces between bases
* Higher % of HA, Power Creep, Learning Curve Creep, etc. have increased average TTK on Infantry, this both (1) gives HA more time to activate damage mitigation techniques, and (2) higher damage/mag and higher TTK weapons more effective
* proliferation of WASD Sniper Shuffle (radically reduced effectiveness of Snipers)
* kill Cam (reduced effectiveness of Infiltrators)
* Motion Spotter (reduced effectiveness of Infiltrators)
* Darklight (reduced effectiveness of Infiltrators)
* release of Harasser which greatly increased presence of AI and ability to find/kill Sunderers much easier/faster
* release of ANT which increased ability to detect Infantry and Sunderers
* Infiltrators can no longer hack generators of bases off the Lattice
* Lattice makes for much less flanking in battles, narrower battlefronts, limits direction of attack, makes attacker route more predictable
* large scale use of Spawn Beacons
* Lancers, Ravens, and other means to kill Sunderers quicker and more reliably
* Vehicles Resources used to be much less abundant
* Vehicles were much less Certed, players less experienced with them, and they were more vulnerable overall

I am sure there is more if I (or others) take more time to think about it.

I want to stress that *NONE* of these things are the HAs fault. It's not like the HA was buffed over time by Design to give it advantages. But rather that the meta changed to a type of gameplay that emphasized more weight on the areas that HAs excel at. More Vehicles, Vehicles better at dominating areas between bases, less Infantry flanking and narrower battle fronts, more emphasis for Infantry on CQC, longer TTK, more damage mitigation methods, etc.

are you kidding? we have INVISIBLE sunderers now...
also there are no new ways to find sunderers.
next.

i'm really really trying to think of ways that any of this has anything to do with HA.
"motion spotters!" "Ravens!" "harrassers and ants were added!"
yes but what the hell does that have to do with HAs?
they can kill sunderers? good for them, nothing to do with HAs though...

actually there are far less vehicles because we used to be able to pull a tank and an ESF using separate resources.
and no there isn't more emphasis on CqC than before, the bases are mostly the same.
"more damage mitigation methods" again, no. damage mitigations were all heavily nerfed.

TL;DR the gameplay hasn't changed, HA have been nerfed massively from what they once were, by trying to pretend that HAs are somehow better than they used to be, you just come across as being rather confused.

Heavy Assault is by far my most played class and I agree with everything you said. If you can't beat em', join em'. I'd prefer the game just had better class balance in the first place though, since I think it would be more fun to play a wider variety of classes without feeling like I'm deliberately putting myself at a big disadvantage by doing so.

Using that logic it would be fine if LMGs all did instagib 1 shot kills to the body, because anyone can change classes right?

I think the point is we'd like to see more balanced classes to create a wider variety of gameplay (both your gameplay and your opponents). What's the point of having so many classes if almost everyone is playing HA and infil?