No one probably cares but a lot of the issues i see with HA/Infil i saw in my old game which shut down on May 30th. I can give a brief explanation of the hate between HA/Infil and balance issues (extreme) but only if people are interested and want a little reading. Also were i got my infiltrator bias but i try to be humble with it. Plus info on the other classes, not too much since i started playing a couple years after the game was released, and i was a COMPLETE noob (like now) so i never realized how crappy stuff was until later. If you want to see gameplay DUST514 on YT, scout gameplay (infiltrator of DUST514) Cyrius Li-Moody or C. Moody on YT. Last vid he uploaded was PS2 so, irony. EDIT, PS3 FTP MMO/FPS type game
Sure, post on it. Just start out with a only 2-3 paragraphs so people will check it out. I think the HA issue (best in CQC-mid combat, best range AV [in most cases], only AA) is different for different people. For HA players, they mostly don't find it a bad issue. For SOE/DBG they either agree with most HAs or they don't care/understand. And for non-HAs, most have given up, though some naive idealists hold out hope of some sort of balancing. The Infil issue has me curious. Various people complain about Infil, but it covers a lot more range of stuff. What specific issues are you seeing for Infil.
OK The Scout class was the infiltrator of DUST514. There were four different scouts for four different races which you could interchange on one character say your TR it PS2 but want to use a Guass Saw on a TR suit, you could. When i started playing there were only two scouts, the Minmatar scout and the Gallente scout. Minmatar was a CQC knifing role. The quickest of all scouts that could be made much faster at the cost of stealth (called scan profile) and HP health. It's quick, deadly up close, but has the lowest HP. A masochists dream. Unlike here, scouts had shotguns (SEVERE hit detection issues), had C4 (called remote explosives) EMP nades (called flux grenades), and the best knives ever (SEVERE hit detection issues). You had to equip them how ever, the Minmatar got a bonus to NK (nova knife) damage. And your EWAR was absolute crap because EWAR was not your role. Gallente scout is the shotgun scout, bonuses were set up wrong but you got bonuses to EWAR (electronic warfare) example, your scan profile is 24 decibels, my scan precision (like the darts or motion spotters) is 21 decibels, that means everyone 22 db and up will pop up on my minimap within about... 33mts (no intel points for this). Each scout had different advantages and disadvantages and a unique slot layout according to race and class. Thats the numbers of it but you wouldn't understand it too well unless you played it and it had a wall type learning curve were you either got over, or sat on the forums and complained all day about how everything was OP.
I am confused about what your complaint is... the only remote thing I see is you want to factions to use faction specific weapons which will never happen in this game. Also I thought Dust failed because no one wanted to leave their ship they spent years / real money on making just for a gimmick game set in the same universe... (I call it a gimmick because EVE isn't about FPS skills, its about trying to make real money ingame XD )
Dust failed because of the idiotic choice to make a planetary / fps expansion on another platform than the "core" game. How would you feel if DBG released a Planetside 2 expansion with space or naval combat, but only for Xbox for WiiU? Btw I understand Dust differentiation between classes and factions was deeper and more interesting. But ps2 is EXTREMELY competitive. Players get very salty about the smallest changes and differences. I believe it gets hard for DBG to push the ES stuff too far.
No i would hate to have race locking in that game considering how deep the customization went in that game, and i don't mind factions using different weapons in PS2? Your statement confuses me! When i gave the example of a TR using a Gauss Saw it was an example of how you didn't have to switch characters to use a specific weapon or suit. I'm just giving some info on the game i came from and how there were always problems (or perceived) between HA/Infil or in DUST514 scout/sentinel war. And to talk a little about the lore. No it never took off always had a small community, even smaller was the scout community because they were super UP, then after years became super OP, and back to UP because no one could figure out how to balance the scout. And every time scouts had something to say balance wise people assumed we wanted to be super OP, which we didn't (most of us) and it went downhill from there. I see that problem here accept the Devs aren't (hopefully) that stupid and will listen to player feedback without caving to every nerf call.
I know why it failed, it was constantly clear. But I've meet some awesome people there that i still play with. A lot of people that left went to PS2 before all the other games came out (Overwatch, FO4) so just playing with them. There trying to make a PC game but not much info yet or really anything. I'd say it be ready in about 20 years just for greenlit. But I'm solely talking about the similarity in complaints between HA/Infil. And i believe its the same in every game making this post basically pointless but whatever.
Because the Devs decided to make it PS3 exclusive, while the EVE universe the game resides in is PC, this alienated a LOT of potential players. I was excited the whole time it was being developed up until they decided to say F.U. to the PC gamers and make it PS3 only.
Back on OP topic about HA and infil complaints..........I see people complain about HA because they are so smack-you-in-the-gob with big gun from behind my better protection. Or cheese kill one-shot you soldier with my AV rocket launcher I see people complain about infil because they are a nasty surprise just when you thought you were doing OK - sneak up and shoot or stab you in the back or blow you away from a great distance.So the various arguments seem to centre around smack down or sneak shot i.e. they both have a distinct killing advantage. But I don't get it. I main Engie or Medic myself. Mines and high RoF ARs or carbines (plus auto heal function for Medics) are good counters - not awesome, but good. I'm still likely to lose in a 1v1 with a HA or if caught flat footed by an infil but that is not guaranteed. And I try to avoid being on my own and risking a 1v1 situation if possible. Personally I now find HA boring by not having much else to do except shoot at things. And I find infils in CQC tend to have a short life. Stalking behind the combat zone is the ultimate wind-up for enemies and I love doing that when I'm in the mood for a bit of lone wolfing. I think the real reason is that many complaints are from people who haven't worked out how to deal effectively with those classes and would like their game made easier. It's enemy Maxes I hate most. No chance at all of a 1v1 win unless I've anticipated their arrival and I'm both equipped and had the time time to prepare the way with AT mine or C4. At least I have a chance against the other two classes in a surprise fight. TLR Leave HA and infil as they are, if you deal wiht them properly they're not omnipotent.
I'm actually rather concerned that MAXes manage to sneak up on your somehow for a "surprise fight." Even if you aren't looking at your minimap to see their unique always-spotted icon, you should be able to hear them coming and differentiate their footfalls.
I main engineer... its one of the most versatile classes in the game, and very much underrated. With that said.. I've never really understood why people drone on about either the Heavy Assault (actually haven't heard much about them in more recent weeks), or the Infiltrator. I'm able to engage both effectively and know the ins and outs of both classes. Though having experience playing both gives me insights I'd imagine most don't have. For some reason people have this idea that they should never play that which they think is 'OP'. I'm of the opposite mind. If something beats me, and I don't see an immediate counter. I switch to it. Not for FoTM, but to see WHY it is so effective. In finding why it is effective, I also find the flaws, the weaknesses, and shortcomings. Armed with that knowledge I develop new tactics, strategies, and can switch back to my favored class and effectively engage the previously 'OP' encounters. This method has worked for me for 4 years and with just about every vehicle, class, weapon, and most encounters. With that said.. its been interesting trying to convey that experience to others. Every player makes a choice. They either dig their head into the sand, continue with a dishonest agenda (see themselves buffed and others nerfed, common among MMO players), or sometimes come to see the wisdom and adjust their play accordingly. But on to the other topic brought up. I remember hearing about Dust a few years ago. It sounded interesting. It reminded me of the original idea to allow MechWarrior 4 and MechCommander 2 to be played together. MechWarriors piloting mechs with a MechCommander using a overworld view to direct them and call in support to help them. The games used many of the same assets as a result. Unfortunately Microsoft pushed both games out prematurely before working on that feature. Damn shame to be sure. But if ever a game is going to be based and affect things in another like Dust was.. it has to be on the same platform. That just makes sense. Its no wonder being on the Playstation that it failed. I can't imagine most EVE players even have a playstation. But I guess that's why I haven't heard much about it. I just don't keep up with console releases very much these days. Now to answer the question in the title. Does anyone care about how another game did something? Well in most cases no. I'd be wary of anything referenced in Dust. Its a failed game afterall. Just I am wary of anyone suggesting things as they were done in PS1, for the same reasons. That doesn't mean anything you say about it would be a bad suggestion. Just be prepared to articulate it well. I'm reminded of a quote a friend of mine who's also an author has said, "Everything in the universe is measured on itself." This is very true. If you try to make a suggestion from Dust.. and only explain why its good is because it made Dust so good... no one will take that seriously. But if there's a weapon system that was really fun and interesting to use, and you explain why it was on its own. People will listen. I've made references to other games myself. But I'm careful to make sure there is a context and that the idea is articulated as best as it can be. You don't have to limit yourself to just MMOFPS's (especially since there is only like 5 of them ever made). I've referenced Simulators, FPS's, MMORPGs, RTSs, and even Super Mario Bros 3 before. If it works it works. One thing all video games have in common is that they are video games.. meant to be played and have fun with.
Yeah, kind of poor wording on my part. I'm referring to the sort of situation like being in the middle of a massive firefight around a cap point and rushing about trying to heal people then I look up and find a) I'm the last man standing, and b) a s*****g great Max has just rushed into the room while all his mates are still outside or at the bottom of the stairs. I've also been caught out by a distraction - like exchanging fire with someone (kind of gets your attention) and taking him down while Metal Micky has used charge and pounces on you from another direction. Of course, I love Maxes on my team for the same reasons (plus the repair and resupply certs). It's just the other ones I hate although I respect their right to be in the game (preferably on another continent )
So, I do not quite understand what the thread is about. Talking about Dust 514? I'd love to post a few concepts from the game here, just so that everyone can see what other similar games have done. As someone who played that game, I feel that PS2 is sorely lacking in the aircraft department. Dust 514 had only one type of aircraft - dropships - but those things were ******* insane. They were often called flying coffins or it was claimed that they steered like cows, because it could take weeks to get a hang of the controls. It was completely unintuitive, but the ridiculousness of the controls made everyone respect dropship pilots, no matter how annoying they were to fight - After all, if you did manage to shoot down a dropship, you could rest assured in the knowledge that you just caused massive financial damage to the player. The controls worked by having two vector thrusters on the ship. Those vector thrusters would point down while taking off and backward when starting to go forward. So once you got going, it was very hard to stop again, because you didn't actually have anything but your speed holding you in the air. And then you needed to factor in your dropship's rotation, which mostly ended in a spiral of death. Also, you manually adjusted your thrust levels which, by the way, also controlled your ability to fight gravity as well as your speed. And *then* you add in the vehicle equipment. You know how PS2 has vehicle abilities you can get, like a bit of regeneration? A vehicle in Dust could get half a dozen equipment slots, which allowed for multiples of any kind of active ability. Abilities ranged from "sixty seconds of ridiculously tough armor" to "afterburner". And man, those dropships got a lot of mileage from afterburners. Oh and the turrets were front-mounted in a fixed position. Good luck with aiming. Pay attention to how this guy moves when he needs to stop. There is no "slow down and hover" command. There is only "go into a spiral to bleed your speed while adjusting your thrust levels". It's something that even a beginner needs to learn to do anything at all. Dust had a money resource, similar to the nanites in PS2, but you had to pay *everything* with it and they accumulated on a permanent account instead of being hard-capped. Your guns, your armor (which determined your class), your equipment, your vehicles, the equipment of your vehicles. And if you died, you lost it. So you'd get into the menu and, for example, buy fifty loadouts for a light assault. (There were also a few instances of infinite supplies, but that's a sore point for me, concerning anything but the free beginner loadouts) And you made a few cheap loadouts, with next to no equipment, to waste without too much financial loss. Those loadouts were customizable to a degree that I miss in PS2. You want double sidearms? Sure thing, just re-use your primary weapon slot for a sidearm. Get four stacks of spawn points to place? Go ahead, you only need a logistics suit. A heavy with a bunch of sprint speed boosters and stamina enhancements? Sounds ******* ridiculous, but you can keep your chaingun and inherent armor advantage. And then classes would have characteristics like "can carry two primary weapons but is less armored than other heavies but still as slow" or "you get four equipment slot but lose the sidearm and have less armor than an ordinary medium suit". And that's just the horizontal customization. There was also a downright ridiculous vertical progression system. You'd spend skill points on skills, which would both add passives bonuses (stuff like 5% to 25% more armor) and unlock equipment. Want a better primary gun? Sure, but it puts a higher strain on your armor, so you may need to remove a module or two to make it fit. Want a better afterburner? Same thing, maybe cut down on those armor plates. We also had random drops. Which included officer weapons, which were ******* broken. The worst was the Thale's sniper rifle. Nothing was more infuriating than encountering a Thale's user and nothing more satisfying than killing them and knowing that they just lost a rare weapon that cannot be bought. And then there were the tanks. AV vs infantry was a very heated debate that never ended. Either tanks were flimsy if you didn't skill into them (I remember seeing a tank and everyone instantly throwing AV grenades that destroyed it in two shots or so) or they were overpowered death machines that needed no skill, depending on the patch. Remember the vehicle abilities that I just mentioned? At some point, tanks could just endlessly cycle their armor hardeners to get about 90% or so damage reduction on already tough armor, with barely any cooldowns in between. There was nothing you could do without a dedicated squad. And the only AV weapons were a skillshot weapon (a kind of plasma grenade launcher that had a single-shot magazine), a set of lock-on missiles that couldn't dumb fire, a heavy weapon that had a charge-up that prevented you from moving and nova knives - yes, the devs thought it would be funny if the only melee weapon in the game did full damage to vehicles. AV grenades did exist, but lost their power when tanks became undefeatable. Essentially, your AV role gimped your AI completely because you only had a sidearm to defend yourself with. And tankers loved to run in packs. So if you actually reacted to them, their buddies would tear you apart on the infantry role. But that was how Dust was - Pub games were free for alls where players who had corps (basically outfits) would squad up and ******* murder the randoms. And because of a ****** matchmaking system, the pub stompers were often on the same team. And had more expensive equipment. And higher level equipment because of the skill points they gained from pub stomping. Which, I guarantee you, is the actual reason for Dust's death, in addition to the fact that voice chat was the only communication system, which meant that squads had communications while randoms mostly didn't. Oh and tanks could have up to two gunners with light vehicle weapons which were actually even useful in some patches. Because they really needed to be even more killy. The game was infuriating. There were no explanations for any mechanics, even the fact that equipment was aligned with specific factions or that vehicles had weak spots. The balance was atrocious. But sometimes it was fun. Getting full use out of vehicles actually meant something and you could also steal unmanned vehicles, which sometimes cost a fortune to replace and thus were never left alone. Cloaks had longer charges than in PS2 but prevented the cloaker from even having a weapon in their hand and pre-aimed without uncloaking and disallowed re-cloaks on less than 50% charge, but scouts could also pre-place C4 or tank mines and taking a point required a process similar to harvesting Cortium with your ANT. And, if your side was really bad at the game, you could make a loadout that pushed quadruple-duty as team support, slayer and assassin with a bit of AV thrown in - Because skill was tremendously rewarded, as long as the power difference wasn't too large in team compositions. Just placing good team spawn points allowed me to turn the tide in many fights. Oh and RDV pilots were dicks. You summoned vehicles by having them airdropped in by the AI. An AI that loved to destroy your vehicles with weird behavior. tl;dr I rambled for a bit and hope that someone actually finds this interesting to read. Also, pubstomping kills games.
^ Thank you SO MUCH. I had an idea and basis i wanted to talk about but i have such a hard time articulating correctly that my posts make no sense (autism...). You've saved me a ton of frustration.
Good to see a name from Dust. I'm Sergeant Sazu if anyone knew me. Balance discussions on Dust got very heated since dying was also a financial loss, so the there was extra salt in addition to "I felt cheated". It's hard to apply balance philosophies here, where things are much different.
The HA issue goes beyond balance, even. Like sure, it's the best class in the game by far which is annoying as heck, but to add insult to injury it is extremely boring. Like, if you want to be on an equal playing field with others you HAVE to play heavy assault, but heavy assault is completely unstrategic. With Infil and LA, players have to flank in order to gain an advantage. With medic, that advantage comes from either reviving allies to help you (the strategic part of that being not getting killed when your medic tool is out) or from pecking away at enemies because you have self-heal and they don't. With engineer, it's from laying down defenses. When playing heavy assault, gameplay is just boring. There's not really a good way to apply oneself mentally as a heavy assault, and I would argue that even those who give up on waiting for the issue to be solved and resort to playing heavy constantly (30% of classes played are heavy assault) suffer, even though they're put at an advantage, because that advantage comes at the cost of opportunity to apply oneself. It's bad game design through and through.
So you feel the overshield exempts a heavy assault player from thinking about flanking/positioning and avoiding the issues of extremely slow movement speed? I personally love playing medic. The reasons are fantastic weapons and self healing that allows you to carry C4. You know how many heavies I've toasted with C4 around a corner? Really at the end of the day, excluding the OP VS directive weapons, medic and engie are the 2 most self sustaining classes by a pretty large margin. Also don't forget that light assaults are heavily represented on the KDR and KPH leader boards and easily have the the highest skill ceiling. People that aren't qq'ing OP for them now will be as soon as they get their new tool.
I dunno about you but I will take on a HA head on as an Engineer. With sticky grenades they can go down pretty quick. Even without resorting to those however I can use finesse with a carbine or stopping power of a shotgun. Of course if I have initiative, then their shield is a non-issue as they're dead before they can hit F. Where Heavies get crazy is when supported by medics and engies and to some degree infils (motion or darts). Then they force multiply pretty hard. But that's a coordinated force equaling more than the sum of the parts.
Well said. At this point, it's what everyone *expects* from the game, and it's what many (especially the most vocal) *want* in the game. Things are not likely to ever change, outside of some short term nerf/buff... that gets reverted after some random period of time... and then things return to that same state of the game. With the outside exception that the game may skew more toward empowering the Hardcore Organized and High Skill players. Like you said, people just started using HA because they had no other option. So now the number of HA users is so high and they have so much invested in HA, that they themselves protest any change to HA. SOE/DBG has ignored the issue for so long, that for them to address it now would likely drive off the large number of players left who like the imbalance and narrow gameplay.
