[Suggestion] Make infils choose between cloak and recon tools

He replied like that because he knows I'm right.

The fact is, they impact gameplay far too strongly in their current state.

You can't just babble aimlessly about "teamplay" and expect me to back down because I'm afraid of long-winded responses.

Who gives a damn about farmers farming farmers then? There's much better ways at getting certs than a infil. SMGs and Sidearms aren't topping the kill charts either.

So you all are saying they are OP in Team Play.. then walk it back because there's less than one infil per squad.

Now you're saying they're killing gods in random zergling, lonewolf play. But the top killing weapons aren't ones the infils can even use.

Why don't you all request a nerf for the Spitfire or Ranger? I mean that seems to be a theme.. lets find the most worthless things and kill it.

If us infils have to choose between cloak and recon tools can we have as much health as everyone else?

It's not the core message or meaning of it that's annoying or even wrong, but the rather ******** and obnoxious way it's presented across all threads(related or not, usually not...)

Back to original thread: Choosing between cloaking and recon tools is unreasonable, but motion spotters themselves should definitely be looked at as they offer much for very low effort in terms of recon. Surely even the simplest of minds can realize that current iteration of recon is much more shallow than it could be and if recon was made to be less shallow(so you don't just stick m-spotters on the ground), team focused playing would be only more empowered from a such change

spotters have been in the game for ages, why is it now an issue when they haven't even been changed in any way?

with or without spotters a room held by people working as a team will always be hard to remove, even with spotters you can dislodge them with team tools, throw EMPs, Flashbangs, Concussion grenades, standard grenades and then push in with HAs and maxes at the front.

concussion/EMPs with flashbangs are effective for breaching defended rooms.

if you are not using grenades to soften up their defenses before you push in then it's your own fault.

sure motion spotters at high rank can be replaced, but if you throw a barrage of grenades of different types to damage and impair them and then push you can clear the room. it's called tactics rather then just throwing more bodies into the breach.

How long was ZOE in the state it was?

How long was the PPA how it was before people got tired of it?

How long was the Vulcan like it was?


Some things take time for people to get around to complaining about.

Uh, that wasn't at all what I said.

Like... At all.

Were you addressing a particular post with this or...?

If this was reply to my message, it is obvious that your entire point was to get to bomb me with this:

Rushed gibberish aside, just because motion spotters haven't been looked at since they were released does not mean there isn't a problem worth looking into. My interests are only in having healthier, more engaging recon in this game and I don't think motion spotters are way too out of line at the moment, they just dumb the recon down and make it a low effort thing. So far not many knowledgeable people think that motion spotters are in an optimal state for the game, although I wouldn't set a huge priority for dealing with them

SMGs are not the weapons with the fastest TTK, that would be 845 x 143 assault rifles and carbines which also have better damage falloff and bulet velocity.

Since when do Infils carry revive grenades?


But that aside, let´s take a look at a Combat Medic loadout:

• By far the best primary weapon in the game (Assault Rifle, up to 845 x 143) (exclusive)
• 4x Revive Grenade (exclusive)
• Self- and AOE-heal (exclusive) or AOE shield regenerator (exclusive)
• Medical Applicator for infinite healing and reviving (exclusive)
• 2x C4 (therefore able to destroy MAXs and vehicles which is quite difficult, if not impossible for an Infil) or medkits
• Able to carry a secondary (Hunter QXC) with Detect Bolts (no poor mans healing/revive tool for Infils available, though)
• No trade off!

Or an Engineer loadout:

• Carbine (up to 845 x 143 and still better damage falloff and bullet velocity than SMGs) (exclusive)
• Sticky grenade (exclusive)
• AV-Mana Turret (exclusive)
• Nano-Armor kit for infinite repairs (exclusive)
• Up to 5 AV mines (exclusive), 4x C4, 3 AI mines or medkits
• Infinite ammo packs (exclusive)
• Alternatively able to carry the best Anti-Max firearm ingame (Archer) (exclusive)
• Able to carry a secondary (Hunter QXC) with Detect Bolts (no poor mans ammo bag/repair tool for Infils available, though)
• No trade off!

Both of these classes are way more powerful than Infiltrators, but that will only become visible to people who stop looking at K/D as the only important stat and start looking at things like SPM which is a way better indicator of "usefulness" in this game.

Who cares if you killed a whole group of people if a nearby medic can just revive them all with the throw of a grenade, making all your "killing work" void in mere seconds?

This is Planetside, not freaking CoD.

If you want buffs for e.g. LAs, say so, but stop the nerf herding mentality.

The point is that Infils are supposed to be a support class like medic or engy, providing hacks and recon, but unlike those classes they also match or exceed the actual assault classes at assaulting (on ps4 at least). So you can't address the issue by buffing LAs alone, you'd have to buff all classes except Infils (and maxes). That would be overkill with all kinds of unwanted side effects, so it's better to make a more targeted adjustment, either to Infils generally (eg loadout changes) or ps4 Infils specifically (eg higher cloak visibility).

If by "assaulting" you mean breaking a stalemate or breaching a room, HAs are way more efficient than Infils. Most organized squads have exactly one (1) dedicated Infil for recon purposes (not for "assaulting"), the rest is normally HA/Medic/Engineer.

I´ll give you that LAs are quite underwhelming regarding group play.

So by buffing all classes you mean a Medic or an Engineer should have the same offensive AI capabilities as an Infiltrator?

Then you would have to give Infils better defensive and AV capabilities, otherwise nobody would play Infil anymore. As we all know, there is even a "poor mans recon tool" available for every class, even refillable endlessly by ammo bags.

There are even squads that don´t use even a single Infil, they just sit an Engineer with Hunter QXC on an ammo bag whos spamming away Detect Bolts like there´s no tomorrow.

As I wrote before, PS2 is about teamplay.

A medics reviving abilities way surpasses the killing potential of an Infiltrator.
Even after the Infil goes out of ammo from all the killing, the medic is still happily reviving and healing away.
Did you ever see a "Medic Ball" in action?
It´s theoretically possible to revive an infinite number of players with just one grenade, let´s talk about "OP".

Maybe it is that bad with visibility on PS4, but I can honestly say I have never seen a group majority of Infils in organized play on PC.

Ever.

(And this is not because us PC players don´t know WTF we are doing.)

By assaulting I mean gunplay in the general vicinity of the objective(s) and spawns. An HA is better in a few very specific situations (like slicing corners with the shield up as you enter a room) but this is a small proportion of what assaulting involves. The majority of any assault on a typical map happens outside the objective building, and out there the HA is getting 15 rounds to the back - 10 is enough for engies and medics

Squadplay is a somewhat different issue. In a sense a mixed squad with a fully-certed motion spotter or two, and the discipline to stay near the spotters, is getting a lot of the recon benefit that a squad of Infils would get while having more hp, revives, etc. So if gameplay was mostly one organized squad versus another organized squad maybe Infils' ewar dominance would be less of an issue.

But this is very rarely the case on ps4, and in a randoms vs randoms fight (or squad vs randoms) an infil dominates. If PC really is mostly organized squads playing each other then that largely neutralizes the Infil balance issue, though most PC videos I see seem to be randoms vs randoms or barely organized squads just like ps4 (just faster due to M&K, frame rate and so on).

Without going much further on that issue (I think I said everything I wanted to say), of course not everything on PC is organized play, we also have our fair share of lonewolfs and random players.

But if it indeed is organized play, you will find the Infil situation exactly as I described. Organized groups have, if even, only one Infiltrator for recon, rest HAs and medics with the occasional Engineer for ammo and MAX repairs.

If recon is taken care of, additional Infils simply bring neither the group utility of Medics and Engineers, nor the raw firepower and durability of HAs, therefore most leaders don´t bring more than one.

I totally give you that SMG Infils can be very strong when it comes to playing against unorganized randoms, I know from own experience. On the other side I don´t think it would be such a good idea to balance around lonewolfs and random play, because that would totally screw with balance when it comes to organized combined arms play, which is the essence of Planetside 2.

Cloaking is nowhere near invisibility, it makes a sound you can hear from 200 meters, and an accessory can reveal you, even through walls. To be honest, the most useful thing about it is removing your dorito.

All classes have access to SMGs, but they also have shotguns, and we have subpar weapons. Our automatic scout rifles are just worse versions of carbines, and for mid range we have to use semi-auto scout rifles, which are not very good and are quite difficult to use.

All classes have access to this.

I would argue that revive grenades are as useful as emps.

All classes(except the poor LA) have quite powerful tools. The medics have the medic gun, the heavies have the rocket launchers, and the engineers have either a manned AI turret, and automated one or a AV one.
I admit that the motion spotter is too powerful, but compare the other tools to the sensor dart.

What terminals are you talking about? The ones inside the spawn, or the vehicle ones 2 meters away from it? Hacking in this game is a ******* joke.

10% less shield is quite important, especially coupled with our sub-par weapons. In an equal fight, the infil will always lose to any other class, and expecting us to surprise or ambush our opponents in every fight is foolish, even if we don't add the flashlights, the useless cloak, that the base design makes it almost impossible to ambush anyone when there are more than twelve people, and that 90% of the fighting in this game happens in 6m^2.

.................then give them the same HP as an LA? and call them Dodos (or any flightless bird of your choice)

This is largely due to PS4 vs PC differences. Deepcloak essentially is invisibility on PS4. I've been in many 'contested' objective rooms where you have half a dozen TR shooting in every corner until eventually someone flukes a hit on the VS stalker. Darklight is not really viable - the slight improvement in infil detection (only slight since most the time I'm running) is more than outweighed by the loss of the grip/laser and increased visibility to enemies.

A few things first: Yes, motion spotter is too strong with how much intel it provides to every friendly - maybe even the owner as well - on the map. Needs a nerf. In conjunction with smg infiltrator - indeed very powerful BUT only in minor engagements or when fighting at the absolute edges of a combat area. Rarely out in the open. Your argument of performing very well on a low pop server is not an as considerable one for the power of the cloak and smg combo as you think. It's actually the ideal scenario of where to use it.
As smg infil looking for long killstreaks, you will pick off reinforcements - provided the reinforcements are only slowly drippling in and not flooding because then you are dead pretty soon. Is smg infiltrator - without motion spotter - too powerful in these small scale fights? Very possibly but on the other hand, this playstyle - at least imo - is supposed to reward you for good positioning and an approach differing from the in-your-face-style classes like HA provide you.You say infils are better than HAs - but be honest: didn't you also play your smg infil in a different way you played HA? Let's ask this question to all people bored enough to read my commment: Who would you rather have for a push or a point hold indoors - an infil with or an HA in the hands of the average PS2 player?
As smg infiltrator you are NOT going to try and be COMPETITIVE. HAs, medics, engis, all of those classes are way more useful in a direct combat scenario (inside buildings or in cqc in general). Think what you want of people like AC, but I don't see the majority of them use infils when they want to farm.

Your argument about the stalker cloak being too powerful because you can't spot it - infils give up their primary for this and the weapons you can use as a sneaky stalker are not exactly manifold and nowhere near as deadly as you think.You still have to uncloak, kill your opponent and then, preferably, escape or recloak without having been noticed.
Hunter cloak? All depending on surroundings, lighting, direction of attention of your opponents and their personal abilities. Indeed, according to most infiltrators a very unreliable tool. Useless? No, but something that inside 50m is difficult to measure in terms of effectiveness. Bascially in the sweet spot that you don't want to lose it but often will silently curse it.

Next is saying that we should separate recon and stealth. Why is this a bad idea? Because the infiltrator class already gets low spm/exp in comparison to other classes - extremely limited vs air and vehicles, no way to heal or revive, drop ammo. And on top of that you basically add: "If you want to help your team, you will be stuck visible with downgraded, niche weapon most of which are difficult to use when visible and up to that point relied on the cloak to be viable. In addition you will be having lower shield strenght than any class". You want to put a teamplayer-infil with an auto scout rifle into direct combat with LMG-HAs and AR-medics without the cloak?
At the same time you admit you haven't used the other weapons in the infil arsenal a lot. Basically saying that your expertise on how to fundamentally change a class lies with the fact that you have been using one weapon out of an arsenal of niche weapons. Scout Rifles - automatic or semi? Semi-automatic SRs? BASRs? Stalker gameplay?

To sum it up, your whole argument seems to be based on partial knowledge and experience with a class mixed with the backing by a considerable part of the community about how the motion spotter is a too powerful tool. And instead of suggesting a change to the motion spotter and maybe having a look at the main offender you made out - smgs - you suggest using a sledgehammer to redesign the whole class and playstyle.

Also, the whole game is not balanced in the way you assume. Balance in this game is more about whether you can create a situation in which your loadout combined with your personal skills shine. The cloak gives people with the ability to position themselves well to shine. Potentially.

BEEP BEEP, ENEMY DETECTED

Wow, ok, I'd agree to this if the cloak was made completely invisible when standing still and crouched.

Your proposal ignores the fact the cloak is terribly bugged as it is.

I'm glad you think that play style is so powerful, but that may be because you're a good player. In which case, all you're proposal would do is make life more difficult for Infiltrators who already have a fairly dismal quality of life as it is.

I think you mean to be replying to me. Don't think MellowMartian plays infil much, usually you see him bouncing around as an LA.

PS - The cloak pretty much is completely invisible when stationary+crouched on PS4. From what you and others are saying infil may be fine as it is on PC.