Looking for advice: counter to reverse-flying?

As the title suggests, I'm looking for some flight tips.

Specifically, on what to do, how to react, when your target (another fighter) pulls the reverse maneuver and starts hammering you.

See, in every other situation, even against flak, there’s always some sneaky thing you can do to get the edge... whether it’s attacking from a certain angle, ducking behind scenery, high altitude, low altitude, whatever.

But this is what I experience when someone (usually Reaver pilots – Scythes less often) flips around, and I try desperately to kill them before they kill me:

* I maintain my speed and heading, trying to aim right at them, trying to maintain my attack.

The problem with this:

Due to the backwards flying (thus thrusting vertically and usually at an angle) aiming at *them* becomes very difficult, while I've suddenly become the easiest target. I mean, that’s the entire point. Suddenly, to hit them, I have to be aiming at a random invisible spot (which is constantly in motion, just as they are)... and either I use the rotary, whose projectile speed significantly increases the required lead in this situation, or the needler, whose pixel-perfect accuracy really works against it when you’re in close range combat (either you’re hitting them, or you’re not; there’s no spray).

* I try to increase my speed, fly straight at them, either to collide in desperation, or fly past them and break their line of sight.

The problem with this:

Just doesn’t work. I don’t think I’ve ever managed to beat a reverse-flying Reaver this way. And by this I mean – I usually can’t go fast enough, even with the AB. Even if I actually manage to fly faster than their backwards flying, it’s only by a tiny amount, and I crawl pitifully towards them. Furthermore, my straight trajectory means they’re hammering me the whole time, and I usually die before I can even crash into them... and when I do manage a collision, I’m flying so relatively slowly, I just... nudge them. Then die.
On top of this, assuming I manage to fly past them? I die moments later. Because while I’ve now successfully broken *my* line of sight on *them*, they’ve been able to just swivel right around and track me, and shoot at my backside.

* Maintain distance, use the needler’s accuracy to take them out from outside their comfortable range

The problem with this:

Damage is usually negligible, due to falloff, and long before they die, they will have ducked away out of sight or closed in on my position with ease. Which brings me to:

* Use the reverse maneuver myself.

The problem with this:

In the above example, reversing at this point still puts me at a disadvantage; the needler being so precise, the moment I start reversing, I lose my aim. So essentially, I stop applying damage to them when I begin. Then, once I’m in the process of flying backwards, they’re now in range, and the entire fight has usually been reset in terms of damage delivered, because they’ve usually popped their healing by this point, or started hitting me enough that we're on equal terms anyway. So suddenly there I am with a high accuracy weapon, in a fight where spray and raw damage wins out - it's like using a bolt action rifle against a close range light assault with an SMG... but without the potential damage spike when I hit.

Alternatively, let’s say the fight started at close range, with me chasing them, and them spinning around to shoot at me. In this situation, if I fly into reverse, the same problems persist – I’m now busy beginning the maneuver, while they’re still shooting at me. In other words, even though I may have fired the first shot, *landed* the first shot, the playing field is flipped right around, and I’m on the defensive... and due to the design of the weapons in question, usually up against numerically superior firepower.



I’ve been flying on and off since the beta. I have no issues with spatial awareness; I’m very good at flying under trees, or picking off snipers at long range... and in 90% of my engagements with other fighters, I saw them first, because I have a good ear for the different engine/weapon sounds.

But when someone flies backwards? I really can’t figure out how to *out-fly* them, without just... copying them, and turning the whole thing into a largely luck-based (or rather, stat-based) turret fight.

So what to do? Every tactic in the game has to have a counter beyond "do the same thing right back at them"... that’s just the way these things are.

Incidentally, I've tried all kinds of different loadouts, but at the moment I'm playing with stealth, engagement radar, hover airframe, hornets and needler. Should I be looking at those Air to Air missiles? I'd rather not have to specialise so much, when my opponents don't have to... but maybe that's the only way?

The reverse maneuver is some ******** bug that the Skyknights bullied the Devs into leaving in the game. These are the same people who whine about the air game being "not accessible" as much, when they are the ones who killed it!

My advice? Play a game with real physics and not the homocopter ******** of Planetside.

Whale it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stay at max distance and lockon with tomcats. They will take the missile and die, or commit seppeku by bailing out or crashing. The latter is most likely.

Beware however. Lockon a non-skyknight and you face a lockon yourself. Then you have a real fight on your hands. Especially if they have an idea how to dodge the locks. Many do. And the number steadily grows.

You need to learn how to reverse maneuver. I don't fly, but pilots often talk about 1v1 dogfights having the highest skill ceiling in the game. If you're not learning how to reverse maneuver, you are gimping yourself as a pilot in Planetside 2, setting yourself up for failure.

Go to the VR, and learn how to reverse maneuver and maybe 1v1 dogfight a friend in the VR.

This sounds pretty salty, tbh. Learning to fly is really hard. and Planetside 2 is not your typical, everyday FPS. Flying in Planetside 2 has NOTHING to do with current day aerodynamics or aircraft. Planetside 2 has HOVER vehicles that can FLY BACKWARDS. It's not a bug....

yes it is. RM came into the game as a bug and air users convinced the devs to leave it in as a feature.

It's really not a bug, anymore then Wavedashing in SSBM is a bug.

It's simply a manipulation of game mechanics to perform a specific action. And this isn't always a bad thing either.

Like in SSBM, it has remained popular for over 14 years now because of the advanced level mechanics it introduced.

Now take a look at the new Sm4sh, how is it doing? Oh, hardly been 2 years and already dying out? It's because they butchered the mechanics back in Brawl and they refuse to reintegrate. Project M surpasses Sm4sh in popularity at this point, and it's only a bit older then Brawl.

it came into the game as unintended gameplay, it was not intentionally added to the game and is a bug that has been accepted by the devs and is a bug that is accepted as a feature now by players.

bind "analog throttle" to a key. most people put it on E and put eject someplace other than between throttle and reload.

use fire suppression and AB tanks for now. the more time you have per engagement, the more progression you can gain. more fuel means more room to mismanage it or make mistakes. effective use of limited fuel is what makes secondaries very powerful in hover duels, otherwise they are essentially weighing you down.

bind pitch and roll to keys as well. most people put pitch controls on spare mouse buttons. this works ideally with low sensitivity mouse settings and larger movement of the arm across a wide surface. a variable sensitivity mouse would be a really useful tool.

swap "squad" ESF with a m8 and duel outside warpgate. this is much better than VR because you get hit indicators and a health bar. fight until burning, fire suppress, repair/rearm/repeat. you swap with a squaddie so that you're shooting your own fighter, and thus avoid grief. this is also nice because periodically you will be treated to a fight with a warpgate camping hostile, and very easily transitions from practice mode to just doing it for warm up before you and your m8 fly out for the days session.

I know this doesn't answer the OP about a non reverse counter. the fact is that it's a metagame that you either get good at or you don't. and it isn't just "reverse maneuver" - that is just the most obvious of several advanced tactics that become available once you learn to fully control your aircraft. take this advise, and come back when you're ready to complain about Dalton Libs that have been flying against ESF movement meta for years.

So, the impression I'm getting is... there is no actual counter-tactic? Either you just... reverse right back at them, and wait for someone to die, or you die anyway?

Well that seems kinda screwy. I mean that's not... how these things work. If there's a tactic that cannot be countered except by matching, then it's not really a valid tactic, but something to be adjusted, surely? It's incomplete game design, essentially. Especially when there are inherent statistical differences between the vehicles, thus meaning that matching your opponents tactics does not actually level the playing field.

Oh well. Thanks for the input guys; I'll try, as someone suggested, the AB + heal loadout again... see if I can increase my durability in these situations. Maybe save up for A2A missiles and harass such enemies at long range.

Disappointing though. Back before people started doing this, I remember countless nights full of joyous tension - like two stalker cloakers hunting each other, aircraft would lurk high up the sky, and swoop down on unsuspecting prey, chasing each other through the winding canyons, zooming over the battlefield.

Now it's all... hit the brakes, turn around, pull the trigger.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. It's a different style of combat, actually closer to a space sim then some dogfighting sim like WT or WoW.

And it's not like this game is designed for regular dogfighting in the first place. Pretty much the only similarity between an air sim and PS2 aircraft is that they have a 3rd axis of movement, similarities end there. Hyper-unrealistic acceleration, turning, momentum, diving and climbing all make for a bad traditional dogfight. If you dive on someone from the flight ceiling, you won't do much damage and you won't actually have a speed bonus to escape.

You are doing so many things wrong, you know you're doing them wrong, but you still do them.

Let's go step by step:

Pick a loadout and play to its strengths. These are your options.

Rusher
Coyote + Rotary: Fire supp, Stealth, Racer
Use terrain to block LOS on your enemy to allow you to flank to get in close where your weapons will do a lot of damage. This is primarily an anti-ESF loadout but can also be used against infantry. If you Q spot an enemy ESF and his icon expires less than 10 seconds after you've spotted him he's using stealth and you should not engage as your coyotes will effectively be useless.

Airspace denial
Tomcats + Rotary: Fire supp, Nanites, Hover
Stay in the open or at the flight ceiling in hover mode and KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. As soon as you see an enemy aircraft keep your distance and fly high and just spam locks from a safe distance. If he tries to rush you, switch to your nosegun. He'll be flying in a straight line towards you making him an easy target. Try to keep your target at the edge of your lock range. DO NOT follow him if he uses terrain to block your LOS. It's a trap and you will die if you follow. Just play passively and deny him your airspace. If he sees you first AND has flares.... you'll still have a 50% HP advantage on him because you have fire supp and he doesn't. This is primarily an anti-air (ESF / Valk / Lib) loadout.

Anit-Infantry
Banshee + AB: Fire supp, stealth, Racer
The Banshee got nerfed into the ground a while ago, and I really wouldn't recommend using this loadout in its current state. But if you really want to farm infantry, this is how you do it. Always be flying forward with this loadout, never stop to go into hover, you'll be losing too much momentum and it will make you a sitting duck for pretty much everyone. Make sure to run away from ALL enemy ESF. You won't be able to do anything against them so just run.... all the way back to your warpgate if that's what it takes. Use your speed and stealth to avoid threats and make strafing runs when it's safe to do so on locations that you know will be rich with enemy infantry targets. If ground targets begin to lock you or if you begin receiving flak damage fly low and fast and use terrain for cover.

Anti-Vehicle
Needler + Hornets: Fire supp, Nanites, Hover/Racer
Always approach enemy armor from the rear and use your hornets. Don't fly too low or you'll just eat a tank shell. If you begin taking damage retreat to a safe location and use your hyper accurate nosegun to pester them. The default nosegun still applies decent damage to heavy armor especially when hitting the rear. You can use this nosegun to reliably hit enemy armor up to render distance if necessary. But if the opportunity arises, always use your hornets first. They do insane amounts of alpha damage. This loadout should only be used if you are confident that your empire will have air superiority in the area in which you wish to operate as it is completely vulnerable to enemy aircraft.

Pro
Needler + AB: Fire supp, Stealth, Hover
The ultimate try-hard loadout for skilled players.
Stealth provides you with several benefits including additional time to find cover from or be aggressive towards 'lock-on noobs'. 100% counter to 'coyote noobs'. Ability to sneak up on enemy aircraft without being auto-detected and also the potential to play mind games with infantry/armor/aircraft.
AB gives you superior mobility for both defensive and offensive maneuvers.
Fire supp gives you an additional 50% HP over your competition.
Hover frame gives you the ability to quickly cut your forward momentum and enter a RM if someone jumps you as well as superior hover strength for hover dueling as well as increased aim accuracy for ground targets.

THIS is your 'jack of all trades' loadout. Provided you have insane battlefield awareness, positioning skills, aiming skills, dodging skills and patience.

All of these loadouts assume that you're flying solo. If you fly with a wingman or in a squadron your loadouts and flying style should be significantly different.

Its all about constant dodging while maintain your aim on the target. You should watch some videos of two pro players dueling. You dodge while in hover either by strafing left or right or up and down, and with the ability to afterburn to the left, right or up. If you can hover like this and maintain high accuracy then you are a pro pilot.

High accuracy is when someone beats you within 5 to 10 seconds in a hover fight. They may need to aim two inches above your esf, one inch bellow your esf and maybe three inches to the left. Now if you are not dodging you can be one cliped.

Also I believe that you are making a big deal out of the reverse maneuver. If you can maintain high accuracy then your opponents can reverse back to warp gate and it would not save them.

You actually really don't need to learn it unless you want to join the honibrul nose gun duels. As I said, just tomcat them. They'll die before you get the missile off.

They don't run flares because they want to duel noseguns, meaning they're going to be using FS. 3-4 missiles and they're dead. But I said before, they'll crash it before letting the missile hit.

One thing should be changed in the flying game. Getting a lock and the target crashing should credit the kill to the one(s) who got the lock, since that likely caused the target to panic(rage) and crash.

Your best bet to see what you should be doing (to counter particular tactics or in general) is to watch youtube vids of top players.

Top Players
========
Bequ
MattiAce
rguitar87
*many more names* (feel free to add your own and link vids of their play)

Matti vs. Bequ:



rguitar87 doing ESF 1-on-1 tournament:


Here is an observer camera watching ESF 1-on-1 tournament (Finals at 1h 29m 09s):


ESF 2-on2 tournament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuYUZHB-OK8

Here are some vid archives from top players:
https://www.youtube.com/user/MattiAceGaming/search?query=esf
https://www.youtube.com/user/rguitar87/videos

Reverse Move is not some single tactic that can be applied and just insta-wins. Instead, it is a core component of the ESF usage that sits alongside other components in making the ESF effective vs. other ESFs.

Yes, some opponents (including all new ESF pilots) cannot deal with Reverse Move and so it can be used to get a HUGE edge on them, and (2) it is a very important part of positioning/movement, and positioning/movement overlap in many other important areas of ESF use.

ESF vs. ESF is about:
positioning
movement
aiming (leading, ESF movement, ESF positioning, reticule control, etc.)
range control (to target)
evasion
positional awareness (where are they, what is their vector, etc.)
sound awareness
trigger discipline
reload management
afterburner management
damage management
fire suppression management
loadout (and playing to what you have)
etc. (please feel free to add to or modify that list, I am only a slightly above average ESF pilot in ESF duels, but I am pretty good at breaking down games and gameplay)
(NOTE: sorry, lotta overlap in the above categories)

On a side note, I and a few others think they should test out changing ESF flight controls such that players have more direct control over directional use of thrust. As it is now, it's a free-swinging engine, that players have to tinker with to get (and keep) it into the position they want. And the whole thing is pretty non-intuitive. A lot of new pilots struggle with getting the engine into hover or keeping it there (or knowing if they're in hover or not), it would be easier if there were just hard controls for players to put the directional thrust where they want and have it stay there until they change it to the next direction they want. Players could also choose to just have the current non-controllable swinging engine too.

Ok let's see ...

First of all, your tactic is realy doing you in here op.

The whole head for him in a kamikaze style and either ram or hug the opponent to death thing is exactly what the reverse maneuver counters.
This is the situation where it's strength lies, the whole turn around faster stuff you see in videos is only icing, used to maybe stand a chance during a surprise attack.



You are at a very diffiult point in your pilot career in planetside2 ... one we all struggled with ... one you need to overcome to truly shine and maybe never will.

With that, i mean you know how to fly and even how to aim, you are just worse at it than most other dedicated pilots around you.


How it usually works:

You see the enemy esf reversing away from you to get distance and gain radial velocity to shake your aim.

Idealy you are already in hover mode or slow enough for a switch ... if not ... slow down, hit analog throttle and do a small burn sideways to survive until then.

Reversing burns A LOT of fuel ... adjust your aim and fire in controlled bursts.
The needler has enough amo to get you trough a lot of missed shots ... but even so it sometimes is better to wait.

Once the reversing is done, you ll both be in hover mode and end up with a typicall hover fight.


There are some unspoken rules for a hover fight (as in stuff thats commonly known and helps you during such a fight):

1. Kamikaze rush:
Burning straight for your enemy is difficult, makes evading almost impossible and if not done perfectly, your enemy will simply reverse in a circle above/below you and finish you off while your esfs biggest side is exposed.

It can be done ... but usually is only a viable option if you either opt for a ram out of desperation, or catch your enemy during a reload AND have to finish the fight very fast (like for example if there are reinforcements already closing in)


2. Duck, roll and burn:
This is tough to describe in detail ... but basically it's a way to shake someones aim and readjust your position.

The simplest example is a 60-90* roll sideways, follwed by a 2-3sec burn ... usually used to evade during a reload.

More advanced versions ... well you use your evasion to either reposition yourself, or force a memorised movement onto your enemy ... idealy you trained it A LOT and are certain that your own movements won't shake your aim as much as they will for your opponent.

What i personally like to do, but still sometimes fail at^^
start a 60-90* sideway flip, burn, once accellerated flip on your belly (top facing the ground) and use your vertical thrusters to push you in a very speedy motion below and idealy end up slightly above and behind your opponent (you do a 180* circle around him basically)


3. Controlled Spaces:
The stuff above is nice and fine ... but usually will make aiming on your part a real headache.
This is for the times, when you get hit, BUT are landing shots yourself.

You probably have encountered it ... your enemy is seemingly almost at a standstill BUT you can't hit for sh*t.

Alternate between ctrl+space ... remember tough, that your upwards thrust (space) is a lot stronger.
Some keep switching every few seconds ... others (myself included) only switch once hit again.

While easy to execute, it's usually suicide for new pilots ... practise this A LOT ... at first your own movements will throw your aim off and ruin any advantage you could ve gained from doing this.

4. Above is for aim, below for sustainability:
Sadly i have no fun metaphor for this one
Basically, if you hover while aiming down, you have a tendency to gain momentum and your esf will try and force flight mode onto you.

While not exactly easy to controll, it will to a huge degree nullify required adjustments for bullet drop.

If you are below (as in nose points upwards during the fight), staying in hover mode is a lot easier ... but you usually don't see where you are heading (trees, the ground and bridges are a killer here) and still have to compensate for bullet drop.
Tip: use your altitude meter in such a situation to stay clear of at least the ground^^


There is a lot more ... but this should keep you busy for now

Its seems you're under the impression that the reverse maneuver gives them the upper hand in an engagement. It does not, it simply gives them a fighting chance of at least coming out of the engagement alive. If you get the jump on them, even with the reverse maneuver, you have the advantage in the engagement. If you still cant take them out, then I am afraid to say it, you where never going to win it.

OP, I'm a player on the PS4. I fly mostly when I play so I definitely have some time and I know exactly about the things you talk about. It's a tremendously good post and even though I don't have 1,000s of hours logged into flying I've instantly realized some of the things you're saying.

As a Mosquito pilot I'm totally outclassed by a decent margin when flying against a Reaver of similar skill (or better).

I've made a few posts when I first started exactly stating how should I combat Reavers. There is simply no way in my mind. Maybe on paper, (get distance and use the medium range TR advantage). The only negative one gets as a Reaver is the Larger hit box... But honestly a good Reaver pilot will shred you in many ways. Either by using the better Vertical Thrust of after burner.

That point right there doesn't include guns. The AH is WAY better at practical hover fights then even the m18 rotary.

I don't have time right now but I'm saying this... The Mosquito especially has no way to dog/Hover fight a Reaver of equal skill. The only pros us Mosquito have are not useful for anything but running from one corner of the map to the other.

Our weapons cannot keep up in a close hover fight. Our frames also cannot put distance to work to our advantage without us needing minutes to pull away and by the time they already healed.

Literally the only way I can kill a Reaver is by jumping them and then using that to my advantage. In a equal duel I'm dead. Every time unless they screw up.

Luckily for me? Most Reavers are completely garbage and have no idea how to fly. Today I took on five Reavers and died when they jumped me. Then came back with an A2A Uncerted setup and killed four. Thank god people don't know how to abuse that vertical thrust and their weapons.

Gah! Sorry guys for the grammar and the way I worded this. I'm drinking. Anyway good post OP.

I personally don't think there is a way to combat a Reaver on equal footing with a Mosquito. Using my tiny 20KPH speed advantage doesn't exactly work. I just have to pray he's a complete idiot, or isn't paying attention.

God forbid if they come back with the AH and A2A missle.

Mosquitos literally have the worse weapons overall in my mind. Better at medium range? Haha! Distances are either long or close in this game. It's almost impossible to keep anything in the air at medium. I really wish the Rotary had better Velocity and bigger burst.(either faster RPM or more damage per round)