C4 Broken OP

This should not be able to happen, especially when two hexes away from the frontline in a deserted friendly base.

Not to mention that the mere idea that a single infantry unit can instantly kill a 450-nanite MBT is ludicrous. The cheese is real; no wonder this game is hemorrhaging players.

You've got your video set to private.

Though yeah, it does suck when you find yourself being pestered far behind enemy lines.

The price you pay for sitting in a mobile infantry instakill cocoon.
This is a perfect example of "high risk, high reward".

The infantryman has to take an incredible risk (get allllll the way into the center of a death next of enemies and pray no one spots him from +75m off and calls him out to get instagibbed by the surrounding enemies), and his reward to compensate that risk is that he gets a large pile of XP, as well as the pat on the back feel you get for taking out another armored cheese sh*tter.


But in all seriousness.
It's not a question of: "This number of nanites doesn't equal that number of nanites! OP OP OP OP!"
It's the principal of: "This took more effort and risk than that, so if he pulls it off, he gets a big reward."

And (I believe it was) T-Ray said it best: "Maybe, if you're sitting so close that a light assault or other C-4 packing infantry can drop on top of you, you were too close to where you shouldn't have been in a vehicle in the first place. It has big guns strapped to the front. Not a massive club. Vehicles are not primarily designed as a melee weapon, so just be smart and don't get too close."
(Mind you, I am heavily paraphrasing, but that was the jist of it.)

By that logic:
If one guy with 150 nanites worth of C-4 that can essentially (barring any one-in-a-thousand lucky find of two idiot MBT's dryhumping on the battlefield) only kill a max of one MBT per sucessful encounter, then one guy in a 450 MBT should only get enough ammo to kill ONE other heavy armor vehicle before he has to spend another 450 nanites.
But it doesn't work that way, and for good reason.

If you're good enough, you can pull one MBT and run around all day til the continent locks and never lose that one MBT, meanwhile having killed DOZENS of other vehicles, all worth between 250-450 nanites each with just a single, 450 nanite purchase.

C-4 and other infantry used consumables that cost nanites are one-time-use.
Thus, they can see more immediate returns when utilized properly.

Not really.

Up until that infantryman has set down the C4, that infantryman has risked absolutely nothing. There were no nanites expended at all to make that attempt.

The only time infantry risks anything in a C4 charge is the short duration between when the C4 has been set and the C4 has been detonated. This is usually a very short amount of time, and often if the C4 cannot be safely planted then the C4 attack will be aborted.

A tank risks up to 450 nanites. Infantry risk fairly little until they have actually placed the charges, and even then that's only a fraction of the cost that a tanker risks.

My bad, fixed.

Not sitting, simply exiting a friendly base way behind the battle lines.

Incredible risk? Often there is no risk on behalf of the C4 fairy, like in the above situation. And my problem isn't so much with nanite cost, but at the fact that it is an instant kill with no viable counter.
But if you want to talk costs, the C4 only costs nanites when it's used. A C4-er has unlimited chances to try to get close to the tank without spending a thing. The tank, on the other hand, gets instagibbed, and then the player is out 450 nanites, cannot get another tank, and is extremely frustrated. When new players rage quit the game because of this sort of thing, I don't blame them.
I've fixed the video. Give it a watch and tell me if you think it seems fair.

Okay, I take back what I said, you were at the front lines, you need to keep moving, and avoid high, climbable cover, like towers or auraxium shards.

I don't think so. Assuming he's not in the middle of a battle where he can be spotted from any angle, all he has to do it float above the tank in its blind spot and drop some C4.

But the video shown hardly makes the case that C4 is OP. At most it makes a case for enemies not being allowed behind enemy lines, but even then it isn't a strong argument when it's just one LA who got the drop on an obviously clueless tank driver.

Like sniping, the biggest investment for infils is the time it takes to get out there.
Likewise, TIME is the investment here.

Let's do the math.
He's got 2 C-4, and 750 nanites.
It takes him (let's say 5) minutes to foot zerg it out there so he won't be heard or detected by the incredible range at which a vehicle can be heard or spotted (and even a flash is at a high risk, with tank mines as prevalent as they are).
So at 50 nanites a minute (as he can't stack more than the 750 nanites he had when he logged in, so all the nanites he would have gained and used are lost during that trip. Unlike tanks, infantry tend to use nanites quite regularly in order to bolster their survivabilitty or lethality on the field, so while a tanker wouldn't have use for these lost nanites after his initial 450 purchase is refilled, the infantryman would), that's a cost to him of 250 nanites just for the journey.
Now, even if he IS sucessful (though there's no guarentee he will be), you stack on another 150 nanites for the C-4.

That trip just cost him 400 nanites.

Tankers also have a time investment that they are losing as well, no? Driving from the last base over where you could pull an MBT from and being instagibbed by unseen C4 is quite the loss of time.

Tankers risk time and nanites.
Infantry risk time.

Since both risk time, that is irrelevant to the discussion.

So an infiltrator or any other class could have shoot you at the terminal, there could have been mines on the pad, there could have been a mine on the vehicle terminal, an engineer could have hid and run up and placed mines when you stood still... But C4 is broken OP guys, please nerf so we don't have to worry about anything at all that can be a threat to us poor abused tankers.

Tankers don't have to resupply part of their ammo with nanites.
LA/medics (and anyone else using C-4 for AV work) have to resupply their AV weapon with nanites.
They also have to resupply their medkits with nanites, and their grenades with nanites.

Tanks don't have to resupply squat with nanites.
They only ever have to pull a vehicle once, and as long as they don't get in too deep, they can use those nanites indefinately.

Infantry cannot.
Deaths don't cost infantry nanites, the time they spend NOT using nanites is the costly part for infantry.

Well to be fair it could have been mines there instead... you still would have died xD

Let me just break down this single sentence....

No risk like in the above situation. Did you not just say the base was 2 hexes back in your own allied base? How do you think that guy got there? He just magically appeared with the magic of spandex and hope? I mean, you just literally stated he was deep behind enemy lines right inside the base no less. That's pretty risky by any standards of war. Let alone the fact he still had to GET there. So either he walked, flew, drove there (he couldn't have redeployed as it was an enemy base for him, 2 hexes away). That being said, he ran the risk of being caught in some way shape or form the WHOLE way there and the WHOLE time setting up his ambush. Him even being there in the first place was risky, so I'd have to heavily disagree with that first part.

No viable counter, which would be a valuable argument except for the fact you could have countered him by....
-Having proximity radar and seen his movement.
-Simple awareness of your surroundings.
-You could have shot him, with the secondary OR the primary canon, right in the face.
-Not pulled right out of the vehicle bay, then stood still and looked at the sky like it was magnificent, the whole time staying stationary and under a platform that infantry often jump off of while ignoring everything around you.
-Doing a quick check of your surroundings on foot for 10 seconds before pulling the vehicle.
-You could have simply...you know...kept driving forward.
-It's a vanguard, you have a shield, and last I checked it can still keep you alive after 2 c4 as long as you activate it correctly.
-Hell if you looked around and saw him quickly enough you could have probably jumped out of the tank, shot him with your primary infantry weapon and got back in.
-E.T.C.

There's plenty of counters against c4. What you are complaining about, is that there is no counter for something you can't see/didn't know was there. Truthfully, you shouldn't be able to counter something you never know existed. What you are basically asking for is "I either want to be able to see that enemy no matter what so I can't be caught off guard." or "Even if I am caught COMPLETELY UNAWARES I want to be able to get away/attack back, thereby making that tactic completely useless against me.

Now, I can agree it is annoying being killed at a friendly base so far back, but hey that's just how the game is, enemies can be anywhere. It's just as annoying as running over some random tankmine in the middle of some random field that isn't even a high traffic area. Or being shot at by tanks while flying 300m+ in the air. Or randomly having 3 platoons spam your base in the last 30 seconds of a cap. etc etc.

Nanite cost comparisons are out the window simply due to our broken resource system that basically lets you chain pull ANYTHING as long as you aren't a total goober. At this point in the game, I could chain pull any vehicle for my whole play time. I could chain pull any MAX unit. I'd even say I could chain pull infantry consumables as long as I don't just throw them around like candy. And the truth of the matter is, anyone who is about BR 40 can probably do the same, at least with their vehicle of choice. (And that's without membership or boosts.)

As for skill comparison. I think it's pretty easy to see. It takes more skill to sneak up on a tank with c4, than for a tank to take out that infantrymen who wields c4. ESPECIALLY considering tanks don't suffer small arms fire, have a faster top speed, have one hit kill canons, secondary canons (if you have a gunner), prox radar, the eyes of a secondary gunner, and the all powerful THIRD PERSON VIEW, etc (that isn't even counting AI secondaries). Infantry have the ability to be small targets, that's...about...it. About the only exception to this would be light assaults. Now, I'm all for them tweaking c4 away from light assaults, but then that would require the light assault class to be reworked because that is the class's main selling point. That is a whole different discussion in and off itself though.

As for time comparisons, I could see the argument tanks take more time to get to the battle than an infantry who just spawns nearby. Though on the flipside, tanks ALSO survive much more easily and for a longer length of time than an infantryman (at least if the driver knows what they are doing) That is simply due to the fact the tank is much more durable than a single infantryman. So this particular argument can go either way I suppose.

As for the "real life" comparisons. That whole point is moot. True, c4 in real life isn't a big threat to tanks. Also in real life, tanks can't re-arm instantly, they'd have to go to a garage. They'd also require refueling. They'd also break down, and when hit in the tracks they'd be immobile. They also can't go in third person view (they can get out of their tanks tho...and then get shot). They are also much more expensive. They also require much more training than a standard infantryman. etc etc. If we're going to argue realism, then tanks get the drawbacks as much as they would get benefits. Oh, also, a tank needs a crew of 3 at least, you'd definitely lose the ability for the driver to even have a weapon past a small mg. So let's not even go there.

A tank has plenty of benefits, it isn't like those resources (that are plentiful anyway) are going to waste. You still are driving something with much more health, armor, speed, and firepower than a standard c4 jockey. You still could equip prox radar and an AI secondary with a gunner if you were that afraid of infantry. And yes, you will have to sacrifice your AV capacity for AI, as you cannot have everything at once. No single infantry can handle all situations at once, no single aircraft can either, and no single vehicle will be ready for all engagements. You may feel gibbed because you got c4'ed, but you can just as easily gib them back, or gib them on the way to you over and over again, or just move to another location, or just have friendly infantry in the area who aren't blind.

Tanks aren't in such a horrible state as many will preach. Last thing, the game isn't bleeding players because tanks get c4'ed. If any players are leaving, it's tankers who can't accept/don't like/disagree with the fact that tanks in this game work differently than in other games. If that is the case, then let them leave. The point of the game is to have fun, if these tanks aren't fun to them then I hope they enjoy their hobby/interest in a more fulfilling way. As for this game, it will never work like that, that just simply isn't how the game is balanced.

vehicle users commit their resources off the bat, infantry can spend the resources anytime and bank C4 and miens for later for when their resources at topped up at maximum, until they are deployed you lose nothing by dying. a vehicle user can't store a vehicle in their pocket for later.

Tanks have to ether drive back to a base to rearm or find a ammo sundie, infantry can rearm at any infantry terminal or deployed sunderer.

I can use the exact same reasoning for tanks, the difference is infantry can get to a terminal in a couple of minutes so they can resupply and top up their nanites count quicker then a tanker roaming around using tank mines can.

There is zero risk to the C4 fairy, if he dies no problem, there is no spawn cost to respawning and trying again. Meanwhile there is a spawn cost to the tank the C4 insta kills.

If there was a cooldown to C4 then a fairy would need to be skillful, because he would have to wait to get a second try. But no cooldown exists. Which means C4 can cheese over again over again till the tank or max is dead.

TLR Blah, blah, whine, whine. Another died to C4 ragepost.
Welcome to Planetside 2 where nothing is predictable and players are being players.
Next post please.

Maybe he was just really color conscious and the Yellow camo on Esamir made you a target

C4 can be annoying and it is very hard to counter, save for awareness and movement.
It does require the user to often over-extend themselves and that LA could just have easily been gunned down before he got to do any damage.
You had bad luck, he had good luck in that situation.
Annoying? yes.
Game breaking OP? not to me ( an I have gotten my lazy *** C4'd in a tank plenty.)

I get upset at the fairy, then at myself for not moving or seeing them. I know its not the same in your case OrangeJedi, but its a huge game, with a myriad of ways to die, and at some point you will always die in this game.

Deep breaths mate, redeploy and enjoy

This argument hurts my eyes. You can only ignore time if it is (more or less) the same. The fact that this guy broke through the enemy lines, avoided death and arrived at the epicenter of your spawn where I saw plenty friendlies makes this a huge risk vs reward. Although he probably wasn't going for an AT role, but just killing on the tower.

In this case it really sucks. This is the most irritating form, but that doesn't mean it is OP (like the Vanguard shield). In normal situations, C4 is ridiculously easy to avoid. My deaths by C4 in tanks is still only 6, while mines is much more and tanks even higher (hundreds). It is always unbelievable how people go on about C4, while they drive up to objects or towers, leaving incredible blind spots, often with a source of enemies able to approach them from that angle. Or camp on some ridge or something, looking only one way. Some are incredible tactical targets, as they hold down large enemy forces. For me, it is worth my time to remove this pest by taking the time and risk.

Also, risk doesn't compare. An infantry can be hit by practically anything in the game. The tanks don't get hit by splash, small arms and normal arms. Only explosives and a few huge caliber guns can damage them. It takes 5-8 shots to kill an infantry guy by normal arms. It takes 5-7 shots to kill a tank by explosives. Infantry have many OHK conditions, including snipers, powerknife, being driven over, all AP body shots, grenades, all lag compensation scenario's, mines and falling. Tanks have much less OHK conditions, including falling (much higher), C4, mines and Galaxy belly flop. Although often advertised as weaknesses, even the back of the tank reduces damage by 30%. Infantry take 100% damage from anything. Tanks are faster, have more opportunity to determine the engagement in range and location, have more ammo and create zones that infantry will have a hard time to breach.

Tanks are of much more tactical use, are stronger and gain a much more prominent AT and AI arsenal that makes the power of C4 pale by comparison. They gain much more kills and V-kills by comparison. Especially if you count every failed C4 strike. Which was last time I checked about 25%, where we don't even count the ones that didn't blow or where never set down. So much time wasted....

In my post (somewhere in there), you'd see that I personally believe nanite cost moot. Nanites are so ridiculously plentiful you can chain pull vehicles, at least in my opinion. This renders that "cost" point not relevant by my argument. If you die in a tank, you can just spawn and try again, as long as you are somewhat decent with your vehicle, you will be able to spawn one over and over. The only exception to this would be if you died two times within a 3 minute period (assuming you had full resources from the get-go). And if you are dying that quickly in your vehicle, you either need some practice, you are pulling from a poor or dangerous location, or you are just plain unlucky and ran over the phantom random tankmine in a field too many times in short order.

If there was a cooldown to c4, you could just shoot the guy, which you could already do if you were aware of your surroundings and shot him while he was coming for you. Or, if you were aware of your surroundings and didn't put yourself in a risky position in the first place. Also, if you look at the video, the cooldown wouldn't have helped. Even with a 10 second cooldown, that tank would have been toast. He didn't even see the guy, even with a cooldown he wouldn't have even known the c4 was placed because he wasn't aware of his surroundings.

Now if you are talking about a delay in the placement of the c4 charge, aka "it takes such and such time to place the charge and arm it". Then that is being unreasonable. That would basically nerf c4 against vehicles into uselessness, especially cause all it would take is a vehicle moving 1 inch forward/back to ruin w/e animation/mechanics the "placement" would use. That vehicle most of the time wouldn't even be actively trying to shake the c4, more than likely he would be moving completely unaware of what is happening to him. And if we are saying "placing c4 should be more realistic, you have to place it and arm it", then I rebuke by saying "tanks then lose their third person view, and people should be able to place the c4 even while walking/running as long as they stay within the appropriate distance of the tank so they can reach it".

Edit: If you mean a cooldown between throwing the first and second c4, so that the fairy has to be lucky enough to get a second try. That's just...pathetic. Why should an infantryman who has the disadvantage in speed, firepower, armor, and health....after successfully either sneaking up or ambushing a freaking tank, need to do the same thing twice. The infantryman already performed a successful sneak attack/ambush, why should he have to do it twice? Why should a tank get a "get out of jail free" card, of being snuck up on? That's like saying, you are playing a tank, if you sneak up behind an infantryman, the main canon shouldn't be good enough to one shot him, it should take two shots so that the tank has to be lucky enough to get a second try on the infantryman.

Idk if you've ever played Planetside, but running around unpopulated enemy bases is extremely easy. You should try it sometime!

So I need to buy a dedicated attachment in order to make things fair?

Simple? How was I supposed to have seen him?

Again, he was well outside of my field of view, and I was even looking around.

Do look around for C4 fairies.. Don't look around for C4 fairies. Huh?

Did that.

That really has nothing to do with the question of whether or not C4 is balanced.

Did you even watch the video? Instagib. At what point should I have activated the shield? After I exploded? Or on the death screen?

I did look around, but it's very easy for even the most remotely competent of fairies to stay out of a tank's FOV.

Right. Point is, I see no justification in anyone's post as to why C4 should be able to instantly kill a tank. 0TTK is something generally reserved for extreme situations, such as PA shotguns, Anti-tank mines, and when infantry get hit by tank shells. Why is it necessary to give a single infantry unit a 0TTK weapon against a tank? It makes very little sense from a balance standpoint.

Blah, blah, another content-free post that contributes nothing.
Next, please!