Why can ESFs kill my MBT with no way to retaliate?

If you are a good pilot and you get in a walker you will just own with it.

Or if you can just aim a 1kmps weapon.

ESF ARE helpless in attacking AA.

I know you only have 17 kills in an ESF chingles, so i suggest you log on and trial some hornets and go try to kill some skyguards with them.

Hey just so you don't have to look around for one, id be more than happy to volunteer to be your target.

Its so easy to kill AA with an ESF, surely you can easily kill me before i can kill you.

And after you kill my skyguard you can come take me out in an AA turret.

You can make a video of you easily defeating me and then post it here.

You will finally have PROOF of your claims, and we can begin the final round of nerfs to air and buffs to AA!!!

Just PM me and we will set it up.

Nonsense. I can provide you with even better proof, and I have before. It's called server-wide performance stats.

Hornet VKPH- 17.33
Skyguard AKPH- 6.09

Per equal hour of usage, for every 1 aircraft a Skyguard kills, a Hornet ESF kills almost 3 ground vehicles.

Heck, in an A2A role Hornets aren't even that bad! Particularly when you compare them to Skyguard anti-vehicle capabilities.

Hornet AKPH- 3.50
Skyguard VKPH- 2.01

There's no need to play your stupid games. Even if I were to participate, it would be so obviously ridiculous to base the balancing of an entire game on two players. Only you would somehow think that such an isolated case could ever prove something.

What I'm curious about is why you refuse to consider data based on 1,947 people and instead think data based on 2 people will tell you anything meaningful?

Although probably cherrypicked to some extent, it's good to see that in almost every Hornet situation you had AA shooting you. Especially the time between the AA acquiring you and how long you were already busy with the attack run are signs of how "useful" AA is in defense of tanks. By the time you notice any ESF that took the 5 seconds to come from another direction, he's already put 2 hornets in you and is either on his way out or getting ready to fire the next volley. No AA secondary is going to help that.

So rather than kill deter enemy aircraft i have to out rep an aircrafts damage output because my anti-aircraft gun doesnt point directly up? (You do know splash bleeds through the sundy right? and that killing an engi under a sundy with hornets is pretty much guaranteed just by shooting it yes?)
So now the anti-aircraft in the area has been shut down by........an aircraft...
Not exactly a great solution.

Like i said earlier, you just seem to want to argue.
If you agree its a design flaw there is really no discussion to be had.
Walkers / Rangers cannot look directly up and it is possible for an ESF to get into that position, there is nothing to argue.

PS; I never said how 'viable' that situation was or how frequent, just that its 'possible'.

Or because there's competition?

To kill an MBT, you have to content against AP shells, Mines, C4, AV Rocketlaunchers, Harasser AV, MBT Secondaries, Fury Flash/Sunderer's, TankBusters, Bellycanons, Hornets, Rocketpods and various AV Turrets.
To kill an ESF you have to compete with 3 Flak units (Skyguard, Turret, Burster), 3 types of Lock On (all of which kill more vehicles than Aircraft), one ESAV/AA weapon, Noseguns and bellycanons. A shorter list of less variation, and also less pulled.

It's also strange that you say that Titan AP isn't actual AA, and that it's way under the effectiveness of actual AA weapons... Because 1.11% of all aircraft kills compared to 1,23% of all aircraft kills of the best Skyguard.
This is where amount pulled comes in of course, and if you take more stats into account you'll notice that AA scores better in the end but not overly much.

Already discussed.....number one killer of ESF was suicide. Which counts for all the times they are set on fire and unable to land. So that massive suicide number holds all kills for other weapons such as skyguards/g2a lock ons/ walkers/ranger that injured a plane which then was unable to repair and crashed.

AA numbers are lower than actual...the 150AP however doesn't have that issue. If it hits...it kills. So that number is the truth. It may not even be on the list if that percentage of suicide deaths was actually dealt out to the other AA weapons that caused them. After the discussions and over analyzed points I've seen you make here I know you are smart enough to have considered this stuff. So that leaves me with the idea that you are leaning on bias or willful ignorance to support a point that just isn't true.

The titant 150AP just has the highest velocity and with that can better take advantage of the mistakes of the aircraft. I don't think it's OP or anything. But it has an effectiveness far above the noseguns and lolpods on ESFs. There is quite simply AA EVERYWHERE. Amp stations have 12 AA turrets, Towers have 2, Tech plants have 5, other random bases have 2-4. Almost every inch of sky on indar is covered by AA guns that are free. Esamir less so, but there is far less cover for aircraft on esamir. Amerish AA again covers most the map. Hossin...well lets not even talk about hossin It's just a horrible place and no one should go there.

Ultimately the point brought up by the OP and championed by you just doesn't really hold water when one looks at numbers. There is no major spike among the stats, ESFs don't roam the skies ending all fights they approach, they don't even dent them. Hell most fights I've been in ESF's don't even concern me..they are almost a non-threat. When they do become a threat when I respawn with g2a or pull a walker Harasser for me and my friend things clear up fairly fast. They can do a pretty significant amount of damage to a ground fight in progress in a short period of time if there is no AA. But no less then any Tank.

I am a tank pilot for at least 2 years on this game (meaning that i know exacly what a MBT is capable to do...) and i agree exacly with you HVOP. I don't know what kind of idea was to give an overpowered missle to ESF's. Before this, air already were overpowered against ground (and everyone here knows it, don't deny). Just look at this topic...all this answers shows that the current state is wrong and needs the magic word "balance".

Even you using everything that you can to fight air (walker + top armor), we can't do much against air...making your years of experience in tanks on the game worth nothing...Simply because some developer receive a order from his boss (the company needs money), then he is obligated to make a new OP weapon to ESF's to sell a lot of them...

What they don't see is that when they do this, some old and new tank pilots see what they are doing it, then they become tired of being deluded. Players try to notify developers on the forums for MONTHS without success about what is wrong. And then, they probably will stop playing the game because of this kind of thinking...

Like you HVOP, i already open topics about this matter and similar problems months ago. We all see people everyday trying to make good suggestions to finally balance the game and make it fun for all. Have you all asked to yourselfs why only tanks on the game have weak spots? Why we have to hide our back from air? If air vehicles are on the top/above of your tank, why they don't do only TOP kind of damage on the top armor of the tank? Why air vehicles doesn't have any weak spots (if they clearly have on real life...)?

But all they say is that "it's not the way or the path that we want to follow now..." or "it's not in our plans to balance the game at this moment...".

So...

LMFAO, if they sit still. With over triple the bullet velocity (1,000m/s), if you cant hit them with the Walker you sure as hell aint going to hit them with the Ranger

by turning them into a 1/2 vehicle for all intents and purposes. 95% of such tanks are not going to find a gunner because the job involves being unemployed for 90% of the time and being impotent for 5% of the time due to poor angling down potential in rough terrain.
You can read a bit about game theory and collective action problem for why your idea is a pure fantasy.

But you can. You are going to be very ineffective but you can. Also with godly shuffle you can try closing the gap and turning the tables. None of that applies to MBT having an ESF hovering directly above their heads.
A2G air being able to shoot back with its AI gun or spamming lolpods wildly at AA air is perfectly fine but MBT winging it with AV/AI secondary not suited for AA job is a disaster waiting to happen? Why would that be exactly?

So main cannon should not be a threat to ESFs. I agree to that. Now why AV/AI secondaries shouldn't be able to angle up enough for them to have a non-zero, even if abysmal, defensive potential against air?

Have you noticed that ESF never becomes 0% efficient against anything regardless of loadout because that's the whole point of this thread? Nerfing itself against other aircraft doesn't automatically translate into a death sentence and with superior skill at that reverse maneuver thing or by flying better through an obstacle course RedBull style you can BTFO the guy even with AI nosegun. Tank without a loadout is SoL hands down. Like i said, loadout driven which is boring and doesn't allow for unorthodox play and creativity vs skill driven which does.

Also i am sure you have seen these clips of ESFs almost instagibbing skyguards with skill. Usually you want to leave, but you don't have to if you feel like taking chances.

Exactly AI can shoot up...not very effective but technically you can. I shoot up at ESF's with my cannon...and my gunner often hits ESF's with the saron/Aphileon but not very reliably. It's pretty inefficient. BUT I CAN.... So just like that shotgun against long range snipers. It's next to worthless..but as you pointed out I can fight back at least try anyway. I've used bridges to hide under and lure ESF's down to cannon elevation. Not always an option. But when you specialize your tank that is the price you pay.

Cherry picked clips don't mean much. Just because someone can do something amazing doesn't mean it's OP. It means that person put in a crap ton of time and risk to succeed. I used to scythe mow AA maxs that were looking up, coming in low and afterburning so they don't see me till it's too late. I've use magboost to jump up rocks and ram kill reavers and Mosquito's out of the air mid flight. It doesn't mean anything it was just the perfect storm of skill, timing, luck, and bad choices by the enemy ESF. I've even seen people put tank mines ontop of the scythe....fly over a tank and barrel roll so the mines fall on the tank...I mean **** how often do you see that? It's a giant chance....and luck all in one. But it happened. 99% of the time a skyguard dies to aircraft it's because the skyguard had tunnel vision or made a very bad choice.

Speed is the only thing that saves ESFs. Up high AA of all kinds target them with impunity, along with other ESFs Down low where they can use terrain they are in range of ground weapons. ESF's don't have a 0% effective chance all the time, that you are right about. But at .5 vehicle kills per unit of all nose guns...and lolpods. I would be willing to bet MBT cannons sit on par or slightly higher against ESF kills. They aren't totally helpless, in my experiences ESF ignore my tank maybe 60% of the time. Unless there is zero AA then they get more bold but rarely get any kill on me unless they catch me with my pants down and repairing or butt shots.

Just wanna say that Takara knows whats up. When i read his posts it is as though i wrote them myself.

Flak turrets can reach just about every point on every map.

Thats why im usually way behind enemy lines looking for ESF to kill so that i can stay out of the constant flak.

I'm all about killing the ground pounders, but as i have said the best tool for the job is an ESF and we are prevented from stopping the farmers by the extremely overpowering flak.

And the main problem is that it is overpowered vs high flying AA units and far less useful against the ground pounders. The same thing is true of G2A locks. Its almost impossible to aquire a lock on a low flying target intent on farming the ground and ready to dive behind cover or flare at the first beep, yet it is incredibly easy to lock onto an ESF 400 meters above the ground engaged in a battle with other ESF.

Still watch the video of the guy in the vanguard that demigan posted.

As i said i have shot down more ESF with my slower projectile magrider than have killed said magrider and i lone wolf constantly in magrider as i get very bored in the column camping spawn points.

Use the terrain to get elevation, its not hard and its what good tankers do to combat ESF.

When im in my tank i try to stay near places with hills that i can use for this purpose, hopefully close to each other so that i can move to quickly cover all angles that the ESF may try to attack from. I try to back up to things when im shooting at something so that no one can fly behind my tank and kill it. I try to stay near some sort of cover like a garage or a tree so that im not just sitting out in the open.

Tanks have the ability to OHK ESF. And its actually rather easy. Sometimes you can just sit back and nail a few campers with ohk tank rounds and sometimes an ESF gets you alone and in the open and kills you. I'm not even good and i kill more ESF than kill me.

Shooting libs and galaxies who are hovering or moving slowly is incredibly easy as well. With a magrider! With a lockdown prowler hitting planes is easy. Get on an incline a goodly distance from the battle, lock down and start plinking.

The above poster acts as though ESF just farm tanks all day and tanks have no way to respond. Only if you dont know you can shoot ESF with your cannon lol.

I think there is a fair amount of disconnect in that the air guys don't seem to want to acknowledge that Hornets can kill a tank very very fast (but only under the right circumstances which the tank guys wont admit) and the tank guys don't want to acknowledge that AA hurts planes bad and prevents them from engaging or that flying is much harder and subject to interruption (but that the AA kicks planes out of the air rather than kill them usually which the air guys don't want to admit.) Well, not wanting to admit it OR down playing the effect.

I think the most useful thing I have seen in this thread is flawed KPH stats (which speaks nothing of effectiveness -- simply commonality of use) and the connection that Takara made about how planes burning and crashing DONT get added to the kill stat. That's the single thing that has made this whole thread even worth a braincell worth of attention.

I never denied that hornets kill tanks quickly, if the tank is oblivious and alone i just object to the claims of the ease of pulling off such a feat at any meaningful battle.

Don't forget about the bail assualts who comprise 90% of pilots. Even when you do shoot the plane down you dont get a kill.

How about we just admit that the numbers are skewed due to factors that have been observed.

A noob in an ESF is no more effective than a noob in a skyguard. Put your ESF up against MY skyguard and see how well you do.

Otherwise you have no argument. It's put up or shut up. If your numbers reflect actual gameplay then you should easily be able to kill someone who only has 400 or so kills in skyguards.

This is my biggest problem. Liberators & Valkyries should be doing that job and ESF should be stripped of their lol-pods, AI noseguns & hornets removed splash damage. In exchange & at the same time, the Duster would be buffed to be good and not ****, and the CAS splash gun on the valkeryie would be made better.

And at the same time we make it so that AP rounds take 3 hits to kill infantry and ESFs.

Actually -- the Duster is REALLY good. It couldn't be buffed any further in any way without taking a nerf elsewhere...

Again, we have plenty of data. You just simply choose to ignore it.

You can look at the best players (well you used to be able to back when the DA stats site was still up) and see how the best Skyguarder stacked up against the best ESF pilot. And the ESF was far, far more effective. In fact it was even more embarrassing than looking at the average player performance. ESFs just perform better in the hands of a skilled operator, largely because the Skyguard has a very low skill ceiling.

No matter how you dice it, AA simply underperforms compared to A2G in the hands of average or top tier players. There's a reason why the players with the best KDRs and SPMs were all primarily ESF pilots.