Why can ESFs kill my MBT with no way to retaliate?

This is a none argument. You know, MBT are also given weapons that are specialized in killing ESF's.

Killing? Lol. Deterring is the word you are looking for and that comes with the price tag of turning MBT into a solo vehicle because nobody would want to take the job.
****** design is ******.

I didn't really put the Titan AP up as being effective...it's only 1.11 percent of ESF deaths. But it does say something about it being well above the other main tank AP cannons. You can't rely on a Titan AP round to be AA. It's still WAY under the effectiveness of actual AA weapons. I just thought it was entertaining that no ESF weapon shows up in the top 24 of the killers of MBTs but a MBT weapon shows up in the top 12 of ESF killers for a thread about how OP ESFs are against MBTs. The irony is real!

Basically after looking at the numbers posted...one can come to two rational conclusions. One, ESFs are not at all the threat the OP is trying to suggest they are against MBTs. OR Two....ESFs are the threat they do a crap ton of damage to MBT's that are then able to get away and get killed by something else. Meaning ESF's are unable to secure the kill...exactly like they claim AA's problem is. In which case...it sounds like both are on a level field (But from my own experience this isn't really the case. For every five MBTs I see there is one ESF and he isn't doing that kind of work. He is usually running from AA or fighting another ESF. )

I know why I fly, and I'm not very good at ESFs. I'm REALLY pretty good at Hornets I can snipe infantry and maxs. But throw an ESF at me and I'm soon to be a burning pile of nanites. But when I fly and there is AA in the area. I will fly over the outskirts of on going tank battle and target enemy MBTs with just two hornets to throw the fight in the favor of friendly ground vehicles/infantry. I do this with out stopping in the hopes our tanks destroy their own and move in to keep the AA busy or kill it so I can get in closer and use my ESF more effectively.

your whole post is a fallacious argument almost entirely orthogonal to the OPs claim.
You use some meanigless numbers to dismiss the perception of an inherently unfair mechanic where you cannot even theoretically retaliate and when you can it's only because of a schoolboy error on the other side.
In other words it doesn't matter how often it occurs, but that it occurs. Air is scarce enough that it doesn't happen all the time but frequent enough that every single player has tons and tons of bad memories. Every tank user can recall plenty situations where he had no other option but to take it up the *** with 0 hope.
And it's not ground peasants' problem that skyprincesses in a farming frenzy sometimes forget about the whole world and hover low.

Just so you have a comparison: MAXes melt faces of lowly peasants, that doesn't mean that the peasants are completely physically unable to shoot back with what they have, even if it's strongly suboptimal, or use wit to turn the tables.
When a skyguard melts your *** you always have an option to shoot back. You may not like it and certainly it's not the best idea, but it's there.

It's all about the violation of the basic rule that you should never make players 100% hopeless in even the worst encounters. 100% hopelessness means that the game is not skill driven but loadout driven.

It's more that the noseguns can be used at supplementary damage to counter a tank being repaired whilst your rocketpods or hornets reload. If there was some kind of punishment for switching between weapon systems they could keep it, but right now there is no reason to have heavy tank damage when you can literally swap weapons without having to release the mouse button.

Also AI noseguns can still damage heavy stuff, yet Ground base AI variants can't. That needs to be fixed as well.

What are you talking about?
Ofc there is a tank that can deal with air, armor and infantry alike!

You have the light tank(ESF) and the MBT(Liberator), both of them can fit a few different loadouts that makes them not only competetive but near if not completely dominating against air, armor and infantry compared to any other vehicle in the game. With a bit of skill you can even drive the MBT solo while still being able to use all your guns while driving aprox 2-3 times faster than your average ground tank, not only giving you suprisingly high damage and versatility but also makes you pretty hard to kill, from the ground.

Ranger may deter. But the Walker, in the right hands, is a damn killer. Maybe its not in the right hands when you're behind the wheel, but the options still exists.

Why would it be sarcasm?

Do you know how many ESFs I've killed with a Ranger on top of my MBT???

People think the Walker is superior, but the Ranger is actually the gun you want... the Walker will merely deter, the Ranger, however, will absolutely destroy an ESF that doesn't fly away as soon as they start getting hit.

Hell, sometimes me and a friend park a Sundy equipped with dual Rangers at defence points when there's a lot of air, and not even a Liberator can easily tackle it.

I would take the Ranger *any* day over the Walker.

The Ranger can one clip a ESF; the Walker can't.

I would be willing to bet that less than 1 percent of all players hold the entire 1.11 percent of all ESF deaths caused by AP. I've noticed that a lot of people in this thread think that if a weapon doesn't say anti-air on it, they don't even consider using it for anti-air.

Why not?

We use rocket launchers as primary weapons sometimes to kill infantry. We definitely use them on maxes. We use dual fury sunderers to destroy tanks. We use halberds to snipe infantry. I remember when there were more outfits of all BR100 guys who would use a decimator to shoot down any ESF or lib that came near them. I remember when NC maxes used to run bursters for anti-infantry before they were nerfed in that role.

Why do people never even consider the tank main cannon for an anti-air role?

Is it because they think it has a high skill floor?

All you need is a slight incline to increase your maximum gun elevation and it becomes an anti-air weapon. It's super easy to hit galaxies and liberators. Pretty easy to to nail valkyries. For ESF's? All ESF's fly straight and true when they're shooting at someone. That makes it easy to lead the shot. Hovering ESF's are actually harder to hit sometimes because they move up and down unpredictably.

As a hornet user AND someone who frequently hits ESF's with AP rounds and rockets, I can tell you that the most dangerous threat to the guy using hornets is the vehicle he's targeting and from an anti-air vanguard perspective, ESF's are the easiest to hit when they are flying straight at you.

Now if you saw my hornet missiles video, you would've seen that I expose myself to danger for very little time. All weapons that take time to destroy air should immediately be taken off the table. The options you are left with are the ones that do high damage and can kill or critically damage an ESF in the amount of time it is exposed to return fire.

In fact, the same tactics used by smart skyguard users are used by smart tank drivers for anti-air. You run stealth, you hide and wait for the ESF to get close, then you unload.

If you stop focusing your efforts on what you think SHOULD be effective and start using what IS effective for the situation, you'll stop complaining. You'll start to view the game's normal anti-air weapons as low skill floor, low skill ceiling weapons and as a part of a much wider range of available weapons for anti-air.

If you are in a small outfit like me or often find yourself acting as a loner either with or without a zerg, you can only afford to use weapons that can fill multiple roles.

Does my outfit still use skyguards and bursters? Yes...when there's TONS of aircraft in the skies and we can pull at least 4 of them.

I've tried them both out when I'm running solo in my mag and I'd agree with you. The walker is good at deterring things in a larger area but the ranger I find much better for actually killing threats to my tank.

Not really....The OP says MBT's can't fight back....they can. By equiping AA weapons. But then you say they can't compete with the ground targets. ESF's can equip ground attack weapons...and it makes them unable to compete against other air units.

If you think aircraft attacking MBT's that have chosen not to bring a gun able to shoot at them is a poor mechanic I can only say that despite your use of rare words, you just aren't that a very logical thinker. That is like saying... "I equipped this shotgun...now there is only snipers around....that is an unfair mechanic that I can't shoot them with my shotgun." It is quite seriously a very parallel situation. The MBT main cannon shouldn't really ever be much of a threat to ESFs. If someone is suggesting it should be....I respectfully think you are off your rocker. Pulling a MBT with out AA is a gamble...most of the time it pays off. Sometimes you get screwed, and that is part of the game. ESF's that don't take hornets have less of a chance of killing a MBT then the vanguard AP round...mathematically the numbers are true.

The hornets are the only weapon on an ESF that have an average vehicle kill per unit above .6 Apparently that it totally unfair right? But then you can grab a lighting that can fight off two or three ESF's so well they all leave the zone....but that isn't unfair at all right? *taps chin* Honestly...I don't really think it is. That is what the skyguard does. But to claim that is ok, but not letting an ESF that specifically took a weapon that nerfs itself against other aircraft so it can engage ground vehicles with a less efficient number then skyguards is unfair...well again your logic doesn't fit. They chose to give up the ability to fight air in an efficient manor....it wasn't taken away from them.

The Walker can do over 4000 damage (after resists @ min damage range) to ESF's with default clip size. An ESF has 1750 health. As I said, in the right hands it is absolutely lethal to a ESF. It has almost double the DPS of the Ranger and almost triple the velocity. You just have to be able to aim, unlike the Ranger.

You also have to be able to nicely ask the ESF to stay perfectly still within 50m for a whole 3.6 seconds (3,000HP, 130 raw damage, 35% resistance, 36STK@10RPS).

At 400m, you'll need to have the ESF stay still for 5.5 seconds to get that 100% accuracy kill.

Since ESFs can travel up to 320km/h stock, meaning that they can get from 50m to 400m in under 4 seconds.

In the end, the thing with all ground-based AA in the game right now is that you can only kill aircraft if they let you, no matter what you use.

I put that in as a fair nod to the AA <3 crowd. When the top 12 anti esf weapon accounts for 1% of kills -- you know there isn't much variety in AA weapons. I may be a pilot -- but I believe in addressing the AA crowds concerns fairly and so must concede any fair point they make. I know you are doing the same.

This is a misleading statement, as it is true in a pure sense, but not in a practical sense. As you well know that this is only when an ESF is already at max speed. ESFs have accel time, reaction to damage time, and navigational plot time too. All of which you have to take account for when they attack armor -- they aren't attacking armor at full speed and you know it. Cut the bull **** out.

This is actually fairly accurate statement in medium and smaller fights. In said smaller fights there is significantly less AA and an ESF does have to sit around too long. If you are an ESF and bombing infantry and only 1 guy is pulling AA, then you know about how much damage you can take before you need to run off or die. In this case what you said is correct. Even if more than 1 guy is pulling AA you have a general idea of your operational time before death and as such essentially have to let them kill you.

However, it does not address spikes in AA or sudden air/armor support. If you are taking 'x' AA damage and have 'y' operational time; and suddenly another AA source of damage starts hitting you -- you may go down due to the sudden change in your rate of damage taken. It depends on how long into your operational time you are -- the further in the bigger the chance.

This also does not address large battles in which case you simply can't get away from all the AA, or sudden reinforcement from AA focused Armor (A wild 2x walker sundie appears!) while you are getting that flak or lock on rockets. Essentially, while true, the situation is counterable and reversable through ground AA skill and/or teamwork.

Finally, nothing anyone said, dealt with the fact that ESFS, even if they can escape death far more easily than any other vehicle, also can't sit around and drop their payload. Yes, ESFs can run early and will almost always survive. They will also do no damage to the enemy and will continue to do no damage to the enemy essentially being removed from the fight (if not dead) when attended to by a decent AA-man or two. (Not just Chingles, but no one has copped to this fact.)

Willful ignorance is a huge fail.

The number one and two killers are suicide and friendly rams. Suicide generally relates to crashing after being on fire. They killers get credit, but the weapons don't get credit.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. That is very true. I die to being on fire and losing thrust (thereby crashing) more than anything. I thought that the weapons got the kill too since the shooter got a kill credit. Seems that the AA weapon kill rates are skewed to be lower than they are then. Fits in with my experience to date to boot.

Just to throw it out there, I still think ESFs should be less lethal against armor -- especially with respect to expensive tanks. They're air superiority fighters, and yet they can easily double as extremely effective tank assassins. Liberators are enough of a pain in the ***, FFS.

Don't forget every ground pounding noob is just padding stats and so they run as bail assualt anyway. Why that has never been fixed i cant fathom.

I don't understand how bailing and using drifter jets to redeploy before you hitt he ground is any different than the old suicide so they didnt get a kill or simply logging out.

Complete cheese and a huge reason why skyguard kill numbers are down.

It can, but it never will...

Meanwhile, the Ranger can wipe out a ESF while they make a single pass over it... something the Walker can never do.

Hell, even when I'm flying; if I'm getting hit by a Walker, I'm like, "Meh, it's just a Walker, it's only scratching the paint."