Why can ESFs kill my MBT with no way to retaliate?

I already read and dismissed your idea about gimping your tanks against most everything so you can NOT kill an ESF. That is not what solution i'm looking for. I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if you are offended, but i really don't see any meaningful contribution from you for this thread.

Good luck on your quest for tank supremacy!

LOL, check the link in my sig. ESF's are not a problem. Libs and harassers, however, are.

This only works for Sunderers, any MBT or lightning, which are pulled more than often enough and are more expensive, not to mention more restricted, is a sitting duck without AA. Even with AA they stand no real chance since all ground-based AA is completely messed up.
Harassers stand a chance solely on their ability to dodge shots, which makes them more viable in any combat scenario where aircraft are involved than any heavier and more expensive tank. Which again shows how much speed and agility are highly underrated abilities in this game.

Hornets deal 150% the DPS of an AP Vanguard and have a home-to-crosshair ability, don't see how Halberds are even close to that.
Lolpods have larger AOE and are generally more effective than Furies, both because of their much larger range and the vehicle it's stationed on. They also have a much more powerful magdump ability, not to mention render-range Heatvision which the Furies can only dream off.
Coyote's might be the only thing on the list that is somewhat comparable.
Tomcats is a lock-on missile launcher without the disadvantage that aircraft can escape your range in a few seconds, while Walkers are a high-skill (compared to all other AA) weapon that if you have the skill does about the same damage as as Skyguard.

Auto-granted ability that doesn't go away if it's slot is used by something else.
The same Auto-granted ability is now automatically max level, no certing required.
Fire Suppression heals twice as much as any ground-vehicle
Two weapon-systems without the need to switch seats.
Less punishments (if at all) when reloading a weapon while having another weapon selected.
In general all aircraft weapons are upgrades of their ground equivalents. From Bulldogs having much higher velocity and less drop to Drakes having less damage falloff and more accuracy than Basilisk equivalents, Lolpods are a step up from HE weapons which are much more situationally pulled and Hornets out-DPSing almost any ground vehicle in the game, with the exception of the Anchored prowler.

Harassers used to have a secondary on top similar to MBT's, they took less shots to kill and couldn't escape the tanks elevation (except in highly situational scenario's). Yet in the beginning these two-man vehicles (like anyone used the 3rd seat in the beginning, backseat repairs came a little later) 3 2/2 AP MBT's could lose from 1 2/3 Harasser a Halberd or ESAV topgun. Why could it do this? It's effective health was lower, it's DPS was lower, the amount of players needed to use it was lower, all it had was it's speed and maneuverability. Speed and maneuverability are incredibly powerful tools in the vheicle game, and aircraft easily have two and a half to three times more speed and agility, but also don't require a 2-man crew and have more DPS on their weapons and they can diversify in what targets they can engage in the process.

So speed and maneuverability is much, much more powerful than the tanks sturdiness, and the DPS an ESF can cash out with his weapons is a better advantage than the sturdiness of tanks.

Can kill a tank without it having a single chance to retaliate, unless the tank specifically picks a weapon that deters the aircraft and sacrifices a ton of firepower and ability to combat other tanks while they are at it. Oh, or they specifically find some terrain that helps them aim up, and hope the aircraft doesn't change directions during the shell's arc.

Yes this is both true. Nevertheless, does that mean the ESF's AV options (and rocketpods) are balanced? Do we think infiltrators with shotguns are balanced because we have a stalker option where they can only use a pistol? I hope not.

If the ESF lets them. Due to the damage output any ESF can escape the Walker in tact no matter how skilled the user is. Only in CQC can the Walker out-DPS the Skyguard, which has much better ease-of-use and less misses at any range. ESF can also escape Skyguards regardless of the Skyguard skill. All they need to do is react in time and fly in any direction that doesn't take them straight over the Skyguard, even then they still stand a good chance of surviving.

Rangers score more AA kills than Walkers. This could be a fluke with people taking Rangers only when they think they can score a kill, but nevertheless... Rangers are again weaker than the Skyguard, and again it's up to the pilot skill and not the AA user's skill if he dies or not. The most probable way ESF die to Rangers is because they are used on Sunderer colums with multiple and that ESF pilots suffer lag spikes when hit, causing them to crash.

Fury? MBT's can't use a fury?
Anyway, Any weapon that relies on the other user having to deliberately set himself up to be hit by it and even then having almost no chance to actually kill it, let along really hit it the second time it comes around after repairs, is a weapon that should not be in any list. No one is calling a Vulcan at 700m distance a threat for any tank, or a pistol against a sniper at 300m. And at least those weapons can always take a shot and don't rely on the enemy to do something to make them vulnerable.

Really? Average TTK of all other AP weapons from tanks are around 12+...
Doesn't make it any more fair.

Why does any MBT deserve to die simply because they are flanked from behind?
In fact, a Lightning has a far harder time getting behind an MBT and kill it, yet the Prowler can simply out-DPS you without a topgunner and kill you without Anchor, while Magriders can simply turn around and still kill you, and Vanguards have a shield that saves them.
But the ESF, which costs the same and has much, much more powerful weapons, somehow is allowed to have TTK's of 4 seconds on MBT's despite it having an easier time traversing terrain to get that magical rear shot? ESF, which if it this fails because the Magrider turns around or the Vanguard turns on his shield can simply move out of elevation range and then destroy their target from above?
It's not fair for the lightning, and it's unbalanced to the MBT's.

Most tank combat doesn't extend farther. Any tank combat that does is possible because the tanks take shots at eachother while standing still. Now I'm not certain if Hornets have a maximum range after which they explode, but if they don't have a limited range the only reason tanks aren't a target beyond 300-350m is simply because tanks can't return fire to them and will move to avoid your missiles.

And how likely is it that an ESF stays within 50m distance and that you hit everything? How likely is it that the ESF hasn't fled for repairs, only to reset the engagement in that time? Highly likely.

But it's still no more than a deterrence. The engagement range is also highly exaggerated. Even strafing at a measly 40km/h (11,11m/s) is more than enough to avoid a Walker at a lot of ranges already.

ESF can be equipped to deal with aircraft, infantry and tanks at the same time. Dedicated AA can be equipped against aircraft but becomes useless against everything else, and it still doesn't mean you can engage Liberators who can utterly destroy you anyway.

It's not complaining about MBT's killing ESF, it's complaining that there's absolutely nothing really viable you can do against it. Harassers, Sunderers, Lightnings, MBT's and even Flashes can engage eachother in most common loadouts. They can use terrain and mobility to escape eachother or try to get an advantage and win, the fights depend on what scenario, who fires first, terrain, range, who's flanking etc. That's all non-existant against ESF. ESF dictate the fight, you can't escape them, you can't outrun them, you can only hope you happen to be at some sparse roof cover that protects you, and you can only deter them with your AA weapons or hope they dip into your weapon angles. Despite all that you can do or equip the aircraft will always have some advantage and you can't flank them in any way, and even the best ground-based AA can be outrun by aircraft.

It's completely warranted, your view of aircraft is completely askew with the in-game reality.
For their abilities, firepower and usage ESF and Liberators alike are cheap.

Yes! But flanking with 6 tanks is a bit more like "trampling around". There's a thousand and one things you can do better solo or with very small teams than with a group. Seeing that getting someone as an AA gunner or in a Skyguard to follow you around "just in case" is mightily boring for that player, while still meaning you can't actually kill hostile aircraft and only deter them, and also meaning you still can be killed by a Liberator without it ever having to go for repairs.

Also you are saying this is a team game to defend the most lonewolf vehicle in the game. Wait what? ESF can engage the most expensive vehicles driven and gunned by multiple players without that vehicle even being able to fire back.

Well you've already proven you don't even know what roles ESF play, so it's no surprise that you make such false claims.

18 vehicle kills with a ranger, 10 vehicle kills with a Walker, (all 3 in 1 to 1 and a half hour) 21 vehicle kills total with both bursters in 3 hours...
You are full of it.

None of those stats prove my anecdote wrong. I don't often kill ESFs with my secondary AAs when out in the middle of nowhere. But they don't kill me in those situations very often either. I didn't get in the tank to hunt ESFs.

Good luck in your quest for tank supremacy.

100% wrong.

If you assume the ESF user is so terrible he can't keep out of the MBT angle of attack....

Are you for real?

The Walker and Ranger. Are you for real?

They have a blind spot at the top.

Even they can't guarantee return fire.

ESFs have a blind spot everywhere except for their boresight........

They can rotate their vehicle to fire at anything. The tank can't, what with being grounded and all.

Moving the tank a few feet changes what's in the blind spot directly above AA secondaries. Guess what. That pesky ESF is no longer in a blind spot! Are you for real?!?!?!

.....An A2A ESF will and should fly circles around an A2G ESF. ....this happens all the time a PPA scythe won't win a A2A dual with any ESF with a normal nose gun...unless the guy is br1 and stands still.

A2A missiles with a A2A mg is a huge advantage if you get the drop on another ESF. Either way....taking A2G requires you to nerf your ESF to other air threats. So....you are wrong. THEY DO REQUIRE the help of other ESF's if they are engaged by an air superiority fighter. ESF also generally also only have one defense from skyguards....run away. Same with Walkers.....

ESF are on the same turf as you when they decide to go A2G....just because you aren't willing to counter them doesn't mean they are over powered. It just means you are too much of a wuss to try and do something about it.

Skyguards are actually SO over powered that when they show up...most ESF just LEAVE...they stand no chance. The only reason people think they are bad is because they don't get massive amounts of kills with them. Skyguard TTK on an ESF is below 5 seconds. I'm going to say around 3-4 seconds.

So once again......you are just upset no one is killing the thing killing you. And you are unwilling to take up the role of AA but are here to complain that your tank should have the ability to simply ignore them and survive. That is the truly ridiculous idea when MBT's can already farm infantry more easily. Same with lighting..... ESFs are vulnerable from damage from EVERY weapon in this game. Two heavies with MG can do a significant amount o damage to them with just their LMGs. MBT's are immune to all small arms. I'm not saying there isn't some entitled ******** flying around up there...but this idea of your's is about on par...its just as entitled. You already have defenses against them.

OK, imagine you have to give up your secondary weapon, so that you can engage a special unit. Mind you you won't kill that unit. And that secondary can't do anything else. Why is this a minimum mandatory requirement for an MBT to survive any ESF with hornets passing by? How is that fair?

And what prevents the ESF or lib from moving along with you?

The big problem, my friend, is that you simply dismiss any and all of the drawbacks and prerequisites an ESF has to fulfill to do what you claim it does with ease. I admit that much of what you said is true, but you only ever paint everything in the best light for the ESF.
If ESFs were even remotely as overpowered as you paint them there would be no other vehicles. Yet I see more MBTs pulled by one faction than ESFs by all three.

And that part I quoted for better readability (the whole thing is a bit long) pretty much shows that you don't care about what I said anyway.
If you have a G2A secondary equipped you will either kill the ESF or at least make it run for its life. You win per default, save if you **** up. Even better, EVERY aircraft that you can lay eyes on can now be shot at.
Why do you think it would be balanced if you can fight back per default?
Of course I don't expect a Walker to destroy an ESF hovering 500 m away in 6 seconds. But calling a weapon with 1000m/s speed a "high-skill" weapon is kinda strange with the forums being flooded by VS tears about the Gatekeeper outracing the Saron with 500m/s. And, I can't repeat it often enough: You can shoot any and all aircraft you lay eyes on. If they actually try to attack you there are barely any easier targets, save for deployed Sundys.
A dual Walker Sundy is actually pretty damn scary and can outdo a Skyguard in a lot of situations.
To turn the logic around - why do I have to fear for my 350 nanites ESF to be destroyed in a matter of seconds because of a 200 nanites bus that can spawn an army like a freaking clown car and in addition is harder to kill than an MBT?

Harassers were so overpowered because of three abilities that ESFs do not have.
1. They can use cover. No ESFs can't do that. Fleeing behind a mountain is not using cover.
2. They could repair from the rumble seat. (at full speed)
3. They survived two AP shells.
Getting into the back of an MBT might be easy - flying so low it counts as rear and not top hit is not. Or rather it invites a tank shell to the cockpit. TTK: 0 seconds, unless its a Prowler.
If your MBT is alone the ESF might seem far superior, but everybody complaining about air forgets that this is no 1v1 or even 32v32 arena game. Every single thing that lurks on the ground, with the exception of the flash is a potential threat. Some of them can engage aircraft at three times the range any aircraft can engage them, like Walkers and Skyguards.
Every infantry can change to HA and pull a G2A launcher.
Bursters are a no-brainer.
Ranger is a bad joke


And the word everybody complaining about aircraft loves so much.
"Deterrent"
Oh yes, this word is beloved by the anti-aircraft crowd.
This word alone explains why AA needs to be buffed, because its only a deterrent.
If its only a deterrent and not killing its clearly UP after all.....
....
No it only shows that you have no Idea what you are talking about
AA is a deterrent just as a LA on top of a roof deters you from driving your tank next to that building.
It is a deterrent like an anchored HE Prowler aiming its guns at a door.
You stay the hell away from it because IT ******* KILLS YOU.


And just to get that out of my system: I barely even fly anymore. It is usually not worth it if I don't need to take out a specific target. But I have never had problems with ESFs or Liberators yet, except of course if they show up in numbers of 12 up.
I cannot help you or anybody else who has such a problem with ESFs or Liberators that they feel the need to tell the forum about it. The means to deal with them are there. But you need to use them - and every single post I see is like this:

Translation: "I don't want to equip myself and deal with the guy who equipped himself to deal with me, I just want him to die and not bother me anymore".
Oh and regarding that....

They cannot equip themselves to deal with everything at once, just as your tnak can't equip HE and AP at the same time.
Yes, they are cheap considering their firepower and abilities (mobility)
Considering the amount of stuff that can shoot them down they are rather expensive.

If its an ESF: He wants to shoot you, so he has to point his nose at you. If he wants to stay in that spot he has to point it upward and fly parallel to you, without the ability to shoot you. Also he has to adapt to your speed or he will leave that cone of safety and get shot down.

If its a Lib: If hes at the flight ceiling he won't hit you, if he is low enough he is almost bigger than the blind spot. Unless he is a Jedi/Sith who can predict exactly how you are gonna drive and how fast SOME part of the Lib will leave the blind spot and you can shoot him. Although if a Lib is in that spot its propably too late anyway. Better shoot him while he approaches.

Btw, I want to be able to shoot upwards too, but it really is no problem for ESFs and Libs. The ceiling Galaxies are whats annoying.

EDIT: Ok, sorry that became a bit excessive. But all those complaints about aircraft really piss me off.
First of all because I know how easy it is to get rid of them.
And second because most of the complainers never seriously set foot in an ESF.
Some of them say its because its too hard to learn to fly - If thats the reason they don't do it, why shouldn't something hard be rewarding?

Come on man, you make it sound like all I do if fly. Since 2012 1-100 and I've only been up in the air?

I actually have played many hours across the board, loads in the prowler AKA the free cert pinata. Fact because of our lock down ability and our tactics of long range flanking the prowler gets it worse by enemy ESFs and liberators, we can't move, shield, or magburn away from rounds. We were just a free 3 certs to whoever found us. But I still don't think it warrants MBTs having a built in AA deterent.

And once again you keep saying ESFs are cheap, they're not. They require the largest investment of certs and experience in this game just to be viable and they still get a worse cert return than a MBT. They are very expensive and time consuming

This thread has seriously gone off the rails. 95% of the people on both sides of this argument are refusing to acknowledge what the other side is saying. Can we get a lock already? There is nothing constructive being done here.

This is how American politics looks to the rest of the world.

From what I gather the the OP is asking for

1. Either a free deterrent on their tank, like a walker or something on top of his AV secondary
2. Or a secondary that acts more as a hard counter to air, as in something that deals so much dmg in such a short period of time the ESF can't even fly away.

*Edit*
3. Or remove air from the game entirely