[Suggestion] How to fix spawn camping (from a br 31's POV)

So long as defender doesn't get XP/kill point for their kills while invincible, I'd be ok with it.

People would only use it as little as possible but as much as needed to secure the area around the spawn.

Not sure about spawn room camping, but I'm pretty sure mistakes were made with the choice of where to park one's Sundie.

Oh, and thanks to NC on Crux for all that XP. Your sacrifice has been noted.

In beta they had this super crazy notion that one of those things attackers should have to do is actually stand guard on the control points so that they would not tick back to the defenders. God forbid the control points need be to manned and the fighting happen near them... /s

Seriously, locking down the spawn rooms by camping them is the problem, because it completely removes the ability for the defenders to defend the base. And attacking your own base from outside it doesn't make ANY sense at all, it simply highlights the horrible base design in much of this game.

Defenders: They should originate from the base they are defending and they should actually have a real chance to do so. The multiple exits around Zurvan are a pretty good example of defender spawning that works well enough.

Fights: Should actually happen! It is so colossally boring for everyone when all it takes to shut down any hope of having an real battle are a few people to roll into a base an shell the tar out of the spawn room. Can you really blame people for standing around for couple minutes to "shoot mans" that are dumb enough to stand within view of the spawn room? Often times there plumb isn't anything else TO do...

This is my point!

How would a 1 vs 96 ever get to a 24+ vs 96 if no one ever went to a defence?

You're saying no one should go to a 1 v 96, but it's ok to then go if it becomes a 24+ vs 96..... well if no one went that would never happen!

How the game actually works in PS2 is a number of attackers hits a base, then either there's enough numbers to defend it or not, if there isn't the numbers tend to build up over time, sometime more time than it takes for 1 or more base to be captured.

If you remove all motivation for defending when outnumbered you simply remove most of the motivation for ever defending from the game!

Indeed, the only rational outcome would be to only every join a Zerg and attack and never defend.

See again this is the difference.

You see random players as effectively worthless.

But a GAME DEVELOPER cannot afford to do that, as it is those players that pay the bills!

If you make a game terrible for anyone but organised outfits, all you will have left is organised outfits who will then quickly quit out of boredom with no one to farm, it would be a very silly gameplay choice.

Again though if no one can deploy in how would reinforcements GET there to reach whatever arbitary % level you set?

This would in fairness make some Outfits realise that actually then need random players (because they'd keep getting squished by Zergs, no Outfit is an island), but again it would simply encourage HUGE Zergs to constantly form as the only rational form of play.

Charging out when you don't have the number to re-take a base will not succeed.

No one can change that, no people screaming about "charging out" nor even the Devs, and if you create a mechanic to enforce it people will quite simply just stop playing the game.


But then equally almost EVERY defence starts with that exact situation until defender numbers build up enough and they do just that. They don't retake the base every time, but that is the game, you don't win all the time, you never will no matter what.

If people are to be purposefully and intentionally stopped from defending then that is exactly what you are asking for, the end result will not be "magical" organised play for everyone though, it will just be mass Zergs passing each other.

Again though what your asking to happen doesn't marry with what you say you want.

Stopping people from defending won't delay or stop Zergs from taking bases (the opposite will happen).

Stopping people from defending won't encourage masterful tactical play (it will just encourage people to Zerg even more).

Even in PS1 with its destructable spawn tubes a magical world of everyone playing like in an organised Outfit didn't happen, people would just dig in in the tunnels and fight when outnumbered to the bitter end.



TL;DR Punishing players for being outnumbered will kill the game dead within 3 months.

Exactly, better spawns (with more distinctly seperated exits) are the only remotely rational answer.

Creating systems that punish people for being outnumbered are not only counter-productive they are actually completely self-destructive to the game.

Fights get going by 12-24 enemies attacking a base. People respond.

Spawn heroes are NOT an issue here.

When a 96+ drops on a base, ONLY a zerg can counter them. Individuals do nothing to even slow them down. Just get out of their way.

I'm not saying randoms are worthless, randoms sitting in a spawn room against 96+ spawn camping is worthless, so the game should encourage and guide them to better locations.

Also, the game already punishes you for being outnumbered... it's been the entire basis for the game since conception. SIZE. ALWAYS. MATTERS. and all that.

What I'M trying to do, is help people avoid being crushed, or locked in a spawn room needlessly.

Zergs gon' zerg. that's what they do. Organized forces eventually rally and squish them. Random uncoordinated players never do.

The reinforcement system is supposed to help fights escalate in a more even fashion, not direct people to spots where they can do nothing but wait and hope another 90 players decide to join them.,.. randomly...

And my suggestion is don't be stupid and stand in front of spawn rooms. They will either come out or go someplace else.

I should elaborate. If you are doing OPs or running objectives there is no reason to stay in spawns. But if nothing better to do and want to farm some certs, well the fastest way to farm certs is to find a camped base. (depending on the base you either sit in the spawn and kill lemmings (yes tons of them) or you go to nearby base pull a tank with HE and farm the idiots from behind. Or better get a friend and a LIB. The certs flow like Niagara falls.

So don't be a lemming.

A zerg of 96 is 96 individuals. Any countering force is too.

So again how does actively discouraging people to go and fight a Zerg in anyway at all help the game?




If you punish people for being outnumbered (on top of the issue of being outnumber which in a game like PS2 is more than "punishment" enough by a long way) how would you then encourage people to go and fight a Zerg rather than either just joining a Zerg themselves or going to play something else instead where numbers are balanced directly?

These ideas are all stick and no carrot for something that isn't actually remotely a major (or even minor) gameplay problem, just an irritant for some.

This is it. This is the solution. Nothing else needs to be said.

If you can't leave the spawnroom to get those "real kills", you are completely wasting your faction's time. Go somewhere else or counterattack from another nearby base.

My personal preference for a fix. Bases need to be more defenseable(***** to take but no camping just fighting), but once points are capped it flips in 1min. The whole reason spawns are camped is the dam 5min+ wait time. (in beta we saw fast and super slow caps tested, but ****** base defense pushed toward middle ground).

Other choice would be 2-3 times as many spawn exits to spread campers and camped out for fights. More strategy to take and gives defenders time to retake.

*sigh*

People don't have fun sitting in a spawn room waiting for 90+ more people to show up to actually create a fair fight.

In fact, It's one of the biggest complaints I've seen in /re /y, etc

Continuing to direct people into this sitution is part of the problem.

I'm not PUNISHING people for being outnumbered, I want to not REWARD people for doing FRACK ALL.

If all you can do is sit in spawn and wait, THEN GOD DAMN FRAGGING REDPLOY YOU USELESS WASTE AND GO TO ANOTHER FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW IS THIS SO GOD DAMN HARD TO UNDERSTAND

I feel like I'm yelling at a lil ignorant kid with no logical reasoning at all and just keeps asking "why? why? why? why? why?"

I'm done. Sawpn heroes are bad for the game, if you can't understand that then IDGAF, screw off

You can bolster defense around the spawn rooms, you know, not the pants on head design some of them have where the attackers have the advantage against a spawn point. (???)

Also invert the pain field for allies.

Maybe the solution is to make it easier for the spawn room warriors to set up a gal drop ?

Again though if everyone did that there'd never BE a successfully defended base.

And if it is as you suggest 5 vs 96 then how is a counter-attack going to be more successful?

The reality is adding more exits to spawns improves the game, adding ill-thought out punishments for being outnumber only badly degrades the game.

Again creating a punishment system for people that are outnumbered is not only counter-productive (as no one will bother to defend, but rather just form up in attacking Zergs), but actually negatively degrade the game (as there will be less fights not more, and more bored people that simply quit the game altogether).

This is not difficult to understand, it is pretty straight forward and why no game does it I would imagine.

None of the punitive punishment ideas in this thread remotely encourage fights (or anything else), they simply try to discourage people from ever going to an outnumbered defence. For effectively no gain.




Furthermore it would totally destroy the off-peak game entirely, as you can still get server factional imbalances of up to 40%+ in one faction there. Can you imagine what fun it would be to be outnumbered and unable to actually achieve anything at all in every base under these punitive systems?

Interesting proposal, and I think I can get behind it (not sure how best to implement)

I think we need more UI elements for Gals to act as transport for their faction, and this could tie into it.... teleport into Gal from spawn terminals or something.

While I think this could be a great addition, I still see absolutely nothing wrong with removing points and kill counts from kills made from the safety of a spawn room.

Removing those points would also be a LOT easier, programming wise. If player is in pain field, reward no points for kill. Simplez. (relatively, it's sure to be a little more involved than that)


But yes, more teleporter room exits, or other ways to get out of a spawn room are absolutely follow up fixes to the entire system.

Spawn room heroes have GOT to go however. Even if they did nothing but redeploy to another fight, that'd be a huge improvement in game flow.

Letting people get kills while being spawn camped doesn't encourage fights so WTF are you talking about?>?

THERE IS NO FIGHT.

What we're TRYING to do is redirect those players to ACTUAL fights, and not just sit in spawn room after spawn room for 5 bases until a large organized force mobilizes to stop the zerg and doesn't even need the wasted player slot from the last half hour.

I NEVER SAID adding more exits to spawns should not be done. I've actively encouraged adding more exits.

That's a LOT of work and time though.

Know what's quick and easy?

Removing rewards for being a useless ****.

If you can't stop the zerg (aka spawn room heroes) then GIT DAFUQ OUT OF THE WAY and go somewhere you can actually HAVE FUN and get into a real fight.

This is NOT a "punishment system" this is asking for REMOVAL OF A BAD REWARD SYSTEM

You must obviously love padding your KDR from the safety of a spawn cause I can't think of a single logical reason you'd defend this so goddamn heavily

If you're badly outnumbered a Gal drop doesn't help much, especially a non-organsied one.

Again lets think about how this would work in practice.

You've got a Faction A Zerg moving down one lane, you've got a Faction B Zerg moving down another.

How exactly under this system do you get Faction B to confront Faction A's Zerg and vice versa, when you've basically set up a system that postively, intentionally and directly punishes people for "daring" to go confront the other factions Zerg?

The only time you'll get fights is when two Zergs happen to meet, which would be a lot less fights than currently.

You act like the only 2 places to deploy too are join Zerg B (which isn't even a spawn option because the game doesn't offer it to you) or in front of enemy Zerg A (which leaves you hopelessly outnumbered and irrelevant as a player)

There's at LESAT another 5-6 bases you can spawn at on the front line and ANY of them would be infinitely more useful for your team and FAR more likely to start a fun fight.

This is the problem though.

What you're suggesting is that if someone is outnumbered you should discourage them from ever going there in the first place.

This is totally counter-productive.


When you have a base attacked by a massive force the game should if anything be massively encouraging (not discouraging) people to go there and confront it - as that would directly encourage fights, the whole point of a MMOFPS.

NOT if it's 48-96 goddamn players.

Not unless it can get 48-96 players there in LESS THAN 2 minutes.

And I'm not saying to remove it as a spawn option (although as I said, I think they should NOT offer so heavily outnumbered bases to people by default and require people to opt into seeing overpop fights) I'm ONLY saying that people shouldn't get XP and kills for sitting safely behind a spawn door accomplishing absolutely NOTHING whatsoever.

THAT'S IT.

Do not reward BAD behavior. How is this complicated?

Know what's more likely to create a fight? If the 10 players who are spawn camping INSTEAD went to another base, and started a NEW fight there.

Why? Because the enemy CAN ACTUALLY RESPOND TO 10 PLAYERS!!!

Now the enemy will redeploy a few guys there, and back and forth the fight escalates.

Stopping a full force zerg in effect without an organized force almost never happens. It's NOT worth the thousands of wasted player hours of spawn camping for the bare few minutes of fun it has generated.