the lattice is not fun

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by elkikko92, Mar 28, 2015.

  1. zaspacer

    This could be very good. (though could be a little non-intuitive and even have distorted gameplay in places where two bases are nearby, but there is no Lattice link)

    Also, a system where owning different combinations of hexes "opens" up more Lattice connectors. (they would be in map as dotted line, and mouseover would indicate the Hex combo needed to open it)
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  2. axiom537

    ...And neither could anyone working at SOE or any of us that had discussed these issues for months, before the decision was made to go back to the lattice system. The lattice while it has many issues, is the lesser of two evils, but it helps minimize the game play issue of population imbalances, especially on continents, that are not full.
  3. MikeyGeeMan

    Grass is always greener I guess.
  4. maxkeiser

    I always hated lattice and still do. Luckily the game retains enough of the sandbox nature to keep people hooked.
  5. zaspacer

    Question #1:
    Under the HEX system, how would you balance a faction that has 5%, 10% or more players on a continent then another faction?

    Question #2:
    How are you going to restrict that faction from using it's extra players from hitting all of the undefended hex adjacent bases, while matching the smaller sized faction 1:1 at the other bases?

    Anyone playing PS2 before Lattice knows the answer to both question: The Crown. (aka, Overpop Faction plays "King of the Hill" and the other 2 Factions try to knock them off the Hill, effectively having the Underpop Factions team-up to offset the population edge of the Overpop Faction)

    Some players may complain they didn't like The Crown (though many players also loved it). But it was a very effective at getting all 3 Factions into a giant brawl, and getting the 2 lower pop Factions to both target the Overpop faction.

    Getting the 2 Underpop Factions to both attack the Overpop is one way to offset the Overpop Faction advantage. Lattice makes 3-way battles very hard to setup at more than 1 base, whereas it was much easier with the Hex system. PS2 Devs could even setup a Cap Reward Bonus system that steered players into multiple 3-way battles, which would soak up Overpop.

    But it's also important to understand that many players SEEK OUT Overpop and seem to prefer to play in it. We see whole Factions moving to deserted Continents so they can be the Overpop and AVOID fighting the other Factions. Also, many players hated The Crown and 3-way Marathon battles because they didn't give "progress" in terms of Capping bases and making progressive territorial gains.

    Some people hated The Crown because it also kept people off the other Continents. This could be solved by redoing Center Map Base Design on the other Continents to create an equal quality "King Of The Hill" experience on those Continents. This would be needed anyway, to create the 3-way fight sponges to offset a single Faction Overpop.

    This whole system might likely work best in a Map that had Lattice around the edges (maybe 2 tracks parallel on each edge), and a Center of Hex system. So the center could attract the 3-way Marathon/Overpop sponge, and the edges could provide the "Progression" and Overpop zergs that the non-Crown-loving-players prefer. (though there should be an easy way for players to get into the "Crown Brawl" with either a Hex path straight to the Crown from each Warpgate, a mid-point between Warpgate/Crown that was a [capturable] Faction mini-Gate and launch off for the Crown game, or IA that could go to a neighboring Hex of the Crown on the side of the player's Faction)
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  6. axiom537


    And how are you going to get the larger population of players to sit in "The Crown" and play king of the hill? Players are self motivated and will decide to do what they like, you can not control them. In my experience, a few things happen in your solution for managing the over populated faction with a "Crown".

    #1 The O-pop Faction, controls the crown and the surrounding territory, and can easily defend it and have spare players to press elsewhere on the continent until they warpgate the other factions. Besides, they can afford to leave it exposed and fight elsewhere, because they can easily redeply back, wipe the attackers and then return to pressing the attacks towards the warpgates.

    #2 They do not own the crown and decide to ignore it or keep just enough pressure on it to keep that faction from pushing out, while they take over the rest of the continent and warpgate the other factions, especially the one that made the mistake of capturing and holding the crown, which is a population sink.

    Either way trying to use a "crown" or other similar base as a king of the hill, will only make the situation worse...Can't tell you how many times I remember getting continent locked or warpgating another faction under the HEX, because a Platoon or two decided to sit in the crown or a bio lab and farm kills while the rest of the continent was lost... This is exactly what you are proposing and it doesn't solve the problem it makes it worse, this is one of the reason the Crown had to be re-made.

    Players will attack anywhere they can, there is nothing you can add to the game to stop them from doing this. Some will gravitate to the larger fights, but many will hit any base that is available and that is a fact and something that simply can not be controlled under the HEX system and if one faction has a 5%, 10% or larger population advantage, then they will have the extra forces looking for something to do, while the lower populated factions will not be able to spare the troops to try and stop or intercede at all of the exposed adjacent bases, without thinning themselves out.
  7. The_Blazing


    We could know if DGC experimented with different system every now and then. Think about it, we have the perfect tool to test new mechanics without breaking everything permanently and while also attracting players to test them: Alerts. Free vehicles alerts, lattice-less alerts, macro-lattice alerts, no-redeployside alerts... the possibilities are endless. I think that the alert system is being hugely underused for development right now.
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  8. x7xBillyDaKidx7x

    A lattice server ,and no lattice server would be cool. If you like lattice play lattice ,if you want hex back and resources play hex. Would be interesting to see who would play what !
  9. FateJH

    Nothing in the game makes me believe the current implementation (of much of anything) is half as flexible or extensible as we give it credit for.
  10. zaspacer

    Except that The Crown was a real thing. It existed. And it worked.

    The Crown (and surrounding Bases that fed into the system that made The Crown so great) used 3-Way Battles to offset Faction Overpop of any specific Faction. Players could attack The Crown directly, or they could work through the bases around The Crown's edges to hit different factions, secure more approaches to The Crown, or shore up their Flank on their Assault of The Crown.

    A minority of players wanted The Crown remade. It was mostly Organized Players that had the ear of SOE.

    Yes, Factions that defended The Crown often lost most their territory on the Map. Who cared? The ones that held The Crown were happy to do it. It was easy to get into a good fight, and the 3-way grind offset Faction Overpop. It was just that noisy minority of players that wasn't happy... and they're still not happy. (NOTE: also, players that wanted off Indar weren't happy. But this could have been addressed by setting up The Crowns on the other Continents too)

    Organized Players have Server Smash, and it is one of the worst metagames I've seen. Teams just abusing the handful of Units and Mechanics (rapid mass deployed Infanty rushes), including many that are Squad based. Yuck. I don't love Tank Zergs, but it's better than Gal Drop Infinite-Rez Infantry Spam. Moving the Standard Game toward the Organized Player meta moves it in the WRONG direction. Clean up Server Smash Meta, to the point where it's actually GOOD, THEN we can discuss actual merit of increasing the role/influence of Organized Play in the Standard Game.

    Under the Hex system, Zergs often split up after a Cap to chase multiple new adjacent Bases. This diluted the zerg, and made it easier to halt or wipe out the Attacking zerg force. With Lattice, those zergs are just locked onto linear rails and stay intact. And it doesn't help that they've made many changes to protect Tanks vs. long range Infantry attacks.

    As I said in my last post, "it's also important to understand that many players SEEK OUT Overpop and seem to prefer to play in it. We see whole Factions moving to deserted Continents so they can be the Overpop and AVOID fighting the other Factions." And "many players <wanted> 'progress' in terms of Capping bases and making progressive territorial gains". So it seems that maybe not everyone playing WANTS to do away with Overpop steamrolling the Maps. Once players have taken a Map a few times, they get bored of it, and many turn their attention to:
    1) Grinding: Certs (up to a point), Stats (Kill/Death Ratio, etc.), Directives, etc.
    2) Griefing
    3) "Winning" (making "Progress", taking bases, winning Alerts, getting positive messages of accomplishment from the game via text or voice, being able to type in /yell "gg all, we won", etc.
    Almost all of the above are much more doable inside Faction Overpop. Because that's the way the game is tuned to work.

    It could be tuned to work differently... but that is lightyears beyond the comprehension (and patience, ego, attention, box, etc.) of anyone in charge at DBG and most the people on these forums or in the game. Aka: almost certainly not gonna happen.

    Look at what people are choosing to do in game (including leaving or playing less). And figure out why they are choosing to do that, what are they trying to achieve. Then help setup systems that help them achieve those things in a way that makes the game experience better.

    100% yes.

    SOE/DBG has so many tools at its disposal (even now, with massive budget/staff cuts) to figure out how to make a much better game... and it doesn't. I don't think it conceptualizes it.

    In addition, they have another MASSIVE testing Resource with the Test Server. That thing is a Ghost Town most the time, and nobody cares if you completely change the rules on it (as long as you communicate such changes are just a test and not going live). They should start taking single Continents and trying out completely different radical ideas on them for stretches of a week or so:
    1) make 1 Continent Organized Players ONLY: you can spawn into the Warpgate, but can only leave the Warpgate if part of a Squad. If you are out of the Warpgate and leave the Squad, a 20 second timer starts and does not stop unless you Squad up, and if it runs out you are redeployed to the Warpgate.
    2) make Indar with Lattice on the Outside and Hex on the Inside for The Crown.
    3) make 1 Continent with the idea floating around to Lattice only the major bases, with small bases being Hex capturable.
    4) make 1 Continent where you can Warpgate a Faction, blow up Generators to the Shield Bubble, storm the Warpgate, and force them off the Continent. (NOTE: I would advise Adding tiny "Embasy" basses for each Faction that are between their Warpgate and the map Center, similar to the Faction islands we see in Bio Labs. So each Faction can keep a toe hold way back to the Continent if they get pushed off)
    5) make 1 Continent Tank Only. (you can play as Infantry, but can't equip C4, Tank Mines, Rocket Launchers, Turrets, etc., and Bases have no AV Turrets). Cap points can be captured by players in Vehicles and are out in open areas Tanks can get to, no Air is spawnable (all Air Terminals are Tank Terminals), etc.
    6) make 1 Continent Server Smash testing Continent. Try different rule variations to see what makes the best meta. (no Air or Beacons, Medic Rez only works once per Players spawn from the Main Warpgate, Maxs that don't have ranged attacks, etc.)

    When I worked at Sigil/Vanguard, there were different Devs that had different ideas that were great. It was usually the department level managers who would prohibit them being tested or used. It only takes "No" from the people in charge to completely doom a game's potential.
  11. Scr1nRusher

    We need Siegable/capturable warpgates.