Liberator is gamebreakingly op

The problem with yhe Skyguard imho is that it's extremely frustrating and unrewarding: taking down aircraft is bloody complicated because of slow projectiles.
You need 2 at least to be a deterrent to Liberators, and gunners need to be well ccoordinated. Too much effort to get rid of a vehicle that requires very little skill to farm infantry and can easily retreat and repair.

Well then, your problem seems like a lack of awareness, not a flaw in the design. If you know the area your fighting in, you can line yourself up in a direction you can instantly start driving in and not worry about ramming random objects. A similar concept to the infantry game. If you stand still, you will die. When you move, you loose some accuracy but you can survive longer. Why should it be different for Skygaurds?

The statistics don't lie as to how effective the Dalton is against infantry... whether those infantry are caught in secondary explosions or not. The same thing would apply to Skyguards gunning down ground vehicles anyhow (which the Skyguard is terrible at).

I included AV statistics with the added caveat of:

So that was for the sake of completion anyhow. I have no doubt that the Dalton ought to be more effective at an anti-vehicle role than the Skyguard.

Whether it is hard or not is irrelevant. Arguably the fact that it is happening with such frequency suggests that it needs to be made harder still. I propose a velocity nerf, as with what they did with the Galaxy Bulldogs to make hitting aircraft with those much more difficult. I do remember that was one of my favorite things to do to Liberators while in a Galaxy... let them get close, start dancing, and then pelt them with the Bulldogs. The Bulldogs were rightly nerfed because of that, and the Dalton should get the same treatment.

The frequency that something is used is irrelevant, and already captured by "per hour" statistics. We don't need to look at any of that stuff, because performance metrics normalize the data for time.

Because unlike infantry versus other infantry, the TTK of a Skyguard against a stock Liberator is 20 seconds... with 100% accuracy. This means that TTK can jump up to 40 seconds with 50% accuracy, and anything less is going to make it much less effective.

With infantry you have already short TTKs, so adding on an extra fraction of a second doesn't make much of a difference. If infantry had such a long TTK against each other that anyone of them could choose to disengage and run away without awarding a kill, then you'd have a point.

Actually that is one of the largest ballencing factors in the game. If a gun is easy to hit with...it's generally light damage. If it's got lots of kick it generally does more damage. It's how just about every gun in the game is balanced. Harder to use weapons do more damage. If a difficult weapon to use did no damage then....yes exactly it would be worthless and no one would use it.

Again you are telling me the Dalton is good versus infantry...which means you quite literally have NO idea what you are saying.

What I'm saying is that the Dalton kills more infantry than the Skyguard does... when neither are anti-infantry weapons. Did I say it was the easiest weapon to use? Nope. Compared to specialized anti-infantry weapons it certainly isn't as effective (the MBT HE cannons for example have a 36-47 KPH and the Lightning HE cannon are in the 47-49 KPH range). But the Dalton shouldn't be outperforming the Skyguard as much as it is... since neither are AI weapons.

Do you dispute that per hour of usage for every 2 infantry a Skyguard kills the Liberator kills 5? Because that's what the statistics reveal. Do you think the statistics are "wrong" or that there's a conspiracy afoot?

If your argument is that those infantry are being killed by secondary explosions... I don't know how you can quantify that. You certainly haven't presented any data to back up that claim. And without data I really can't take your argument on merit.

Yes I do dispute that...First off infantry generally don't even Res at the distances Daltons are used. Second..the Dalton is a DIRECT HIT WEAPON ONLY. It seriously does 1 point of splash damage in a ring so tight it is less than 1 foot from impact. What these kills represent is obviously something to do with the way the game awards kills. For example, if I shoot a liberator with my dalton...and they all bail out...I am awarded kills for them when they fall to their death and it is given to what ever weapon I was using. Infact I've seen this in game...it actually says ( INFANTRY KILL ) when the exp pops up. The same thing goes for burning vehicles I hit last and was on fire. If they get ou tand it explodes that is a Dalton kill. The game is far from perfect...but this kill award has been in the game since beta. I don't think there is a conspiracy. I just think you aren't all that bright.

You haven't presented a single shred of evidence and you have about 15 or more posts in this thread alone. So by your own argument everything that you have posted here is meritless. After all let me quote your original post

None of these things are even close to factual. Can I see your evidence? Nope you simply made it all up.

The Dalton does not kill more infantry than a Skyguard. It is terrible at killing infantry and is rarely ever in position to kill them.

If you're basing this off of numbers from somewhere like stats.dasanfall, then you have to recognize that the old dalton (which had good splash) inflates them compared to the current dalton (which has worse splash than AP).

If you're basing this off of current numbers from somewhere like the oracle of death, then you have to recognize that the KPH stat for the Dalton is fueled by the people it kills in vehicles. Its VKPH is higher than its total KPH.

The only flaw I found in your statement is the part in red.
You get the kill, but not on the weapon you got the last hit on.
That only happens if he burns.

If an impact or fall damage is the killing blow, the weapon you hit him with last doesn't get any closer to auraxium, which is something I am currently more than a little sore about.

I've had many a weapon in the process of auraxium'ing that lost several kills because the kill on a player fell rather than bite the last bullet or two, opting to jump and take a gamble, only to lose to gravity.
This should award the kill to the weapon, but instead it shows a skull and xbones symbol in the kill feed instead of the weapon name, and the kill doesn't go toward the auraxium of said weapon.

(This is especially annoying when you're awarded crashed aircraft kills, when you earned the kill. I've once had a newbie crash his gal into one of those little radio tower things light assaults like to stand on, and while I got the 7 kills of those who'd remained in his vehicle, I didn't get it toward the crossbow explosive bolt I struck him with. Or any weapon for that matter, which means I was out 8 kills (the 7 occupants and the vehicle kill itself) for a sidearm.)

Oh, a combined arms game? So what you're saying is that in order to effectively kill someone then you need multiple people firing on it?

Fine. Let's do that for aircraft as well. Limit A2G weapons so that you need multiple air vehicles firing at the same target to destroy it in any reasonable amount of time. I take it that you're in agreement with that of course, given how this is a "combined arms" game?

No single Liberator should take out a tank anymore. You ought to have a Liberator, 2 ESFs, and a Valk added in for good measure to trash a tank.

And again, you have a situation where you need multiple AA units to take down one A2G unit... while one A2G unit is perfectly capable of taking out ground targets by itself. That's a prime example of a lack of balance.

If one A2G unit can take out a ground unit without having to call in the entire wing, then one AA unit should be able to destroy one air unit without backup too.

Well you're right that it's not a DPS race... because the Liberator has such an unfair advantage over the Skyguard that it's hardly a race at all. About a 20 second TTK for the Skyguard against the Liberator at 100% accuracy... while a Liberator only has a 1.5 second TTK against the Skyguard under ideal conditions. A Liberator could theoretically kill 13 Skyguards in the amount of time a Skyguard could kill that Liberator.

One could hardly call that a race... the outcome was given well ahead of time.

Oh yea... the Dalton killing enemy aircraft... which it shouldn't be able to do in the first place. As for killing people in vehicles, sure that might happen some of the time. But certainly not as much as the stats would indicate.

My evidence has been statistics, as gathered by the PS2 API and presented by the Oracle of Death (the very ones that you're disputing, by the way). Your "evidence" has been a dispute of the statistics not backed up by documentation or really anything.

Numbers are 30-day averages from the Oracle of Death.

Even if the case were that KPH included vehicle operators who died in their vehicles, the same would also apply to the KPH values for the Skyguard. Since no "pure infantry" KPH is available through the OoD, I think that's still a reasonable metric to use given that the same applies to both vehicles.

Actually I put AA on my tanks when im running solo. It stops esfs not libs however.

All vehicles(and vehicle weapons) need buffs to be better at there roles.

With that reasoning of yours, let me assure you your wife's not the reason your k/d is low. I think it's just a mix between incompetence or ignorance. I'm not quite sure actually. Well, I'll be waiting to see how well you can do in the little skill required liberator. My guess is 11-0 for the tree/cliff.

Cmon, you should know that both shingles and demigan are Dalton Gods, demigan himself said:

Though this just goes to show how ignorant they are about what they are talking about. I don't think you'll ever convince them that the dalton isn't an amazing AI weapon though, they'll hide behind numbers forever and try to twist more of them to show you just how strong the dalton is against infantry.

Can you just link your character names please? I'm just curious how long you have in the pilots seat. You seem to know a ton about libs and how easy they are to operate.

I'm being sarcastic, its clear you have never flown.

Pretty sure they have games that dont have airplanes, maybe you should check one of those out?

want to get hate mails from liberator pilots? bring out a tomcat ESF whit max lock on range.

Actually I have. I have exaggerated how easy it is sure, but due to the server draw-distances having been expanded on Miller for a time (not sure if they are back to normal) I have been able to shoot them from that range.

Also, if we are talking about ignorance... I would nominate a few others first, but you still come pretty high in. "numbers don't matter" etc.

So basically you are complaining that when a high skilled 2 or 3 player group gets in a big, slow, but powerful air vehicle with a good amount of health you can't kill them by yourself? Mmmmmk

Not only do libs require 2 skilled players to stay alive, it requires 2 actively communicating people with skill to operate and 3 for max efficiency. Maybe get 2/3 heavys with lock on rcokets or 2/3 dual arm bursters. If there are 2 libs communicate like the lib crew does and focus fire one of them at a time to do the most damage possible.

Lel way to make this as biased as possible the lib could only killed 1 skyguard and thats assuming they all started shooting at the same time and the lib lands his tb shots at close range. But in all seriousness the 13 skyguards would easily be able to kill the libs before it could land a single tb hit.

Also way to not add in reload times for the lib not to mention the fact that it would need to switch from target to target so basically 19.5 to kill all 13 skyguards if the tb had an infinite magazine didn't have to switch targets and hit every single shot. Not to mention that in all practicality the skyguard is a long range weapons and the tankbuster needs to be withing 50m to be effective.

Way to make that biased as fudge

I'm not going to say this is a complete LTP issue but the majority of skyguards I see play it make massive mistakes. As a person who flys libs daily I would say the 5 most common mistakes most skyguards make are below.

1) They don't position themselves so they can easy see what is coming from all directions.
2) They don't change positions after the engagement is over (if the lib lived).
3) They don't move while they are getting engaged by a lib. At certain altitude I swear most 90% of skyguards freeze like a deer in the headlights allowing for the dalton to easily land shots.
4) They pot shot the lib and the only thing that accomplishes is letting the lib pilot know you are a skyguard and where you are.
5) Pulling a skyguard.

Now 5 isn't meant to sound like an *** there are certain weapons that best counter other weapons. A single skyguard is not the weapon to combat a lib. You may kill ******** lib crews but I doubt the OP is talking about those crews.

I hate fighting Libs in my ESF. I can do everything perfect, but they just need to get lucky once compared to me needing 999 hit registrations to even get it on fire. And by lucky, I mean, I dodged it on MY screen, but on their screen I was somehow sitting still (I'm not saying top Lib teams lagswitch, but they lagswitch! ).

And it's always kids piloting these things. I kept chasing one lib back to the warpgate over and over and over, and finally it gets a lucky Dalton one shot kill (again, I was strafing random, at least ON MY SCREEN) and of course here comes the 'get rekt sit down bad' taunt tells.

I feel one of 2 things needs to happen:

1) Reduce its damage slightly, to almost set ESFs on fire
2) Reduce its velocity