Having used the Orion for 15k and the Battlegoose for 11k, you missed out on a very specific thing. The BG can't do everything the Orion can. At this point I am fairly sure you are just making things up. The Orion doesn't have the smalled COF of any LMG in the game. Hell the MSWR has a better COF then the Orion does, as do many other LMGs. The Orion has a 0.4 moving COF which is the norm for most LMGs. So no, other LMGs aren't using attachments to match the Orion, not even close. You need to stop making up things. You are once again missing important facts. If you overheat the BG, which by the way is extremely easy to do, you end up with the LONGEST reload in the game. Now granted you can switch to medkits, pistol, or rockets to off set this fact. However if you actually manage to kill a person while doing this, that person got out played and deserved to die. To get the best out of the BG you absoutely need to be able to control the fight. If you put yourself in a bad situation you are going to get punished for it because of the heat mechanic. If you run into one too many people with the BG you are going to probably die or you are going to be forced to try and fight someone off with a pistol. The BG is only good at farming people, IE when you have control. If you don't have control over a fight you can still make due as long as you are fighting really bad players. The second you run into anyone who is half way decent you are at a major disadvantage. There is no weapon in the game that will punish you for bad player or aim like the BG will. For a person who has NEVER used the BG you really need to stop talking about the gun like you have been using it for thousands of kills.
Is this site right in the stats it lists? http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Machine_Guns If it is then the BJ is a carbon copy of the Orion. If you have used an Orion without attachments then you have used the BJ as they are the same weapon but for the heat system. And that heat system makes it so that it has 45~ rounds of constant fire instead of 50 before empty, but that heat system also makes it so that anything less than that would be reloaded while you do anything that isn't firing the weapon. Easy enough for any BR1 alt to get to know the BJ as there is nothing that sets it apart from the stock Orion but 5~ rounds less per "mag" and the auto reloading heat system, nothing. Plus you do not need to spend the time to get 15,000 or 11,000 kills to know what a weapon can do. You "might" need that number of kills to master a weapon, in truth mastering anything is more about your ability to control your mouse and movement than anything, but you do not need ANYTHING close to that to know one pretty damn well. I for example have 8.5k kills TOTAL on my main over all weapons and vehicles with only 2 auraxium meddles. Does that mean I am an idiot and don't know a damned thing about how to play the game? Also any areas an attachment that would effect an Orions COF is purely covered by hipfire. That being the laser sight. A forward gip does nothing for COF, only horizontal recoil who shouldn't mean all that much as it is a VS weapon but that data isn't in the linked site so I can't say for certainty. With knowing that the Orion has the smallest hipfire COF by default of any LMG but the Bull and and NS-15m2. That sounds about right for calling the Orion the LMG with one of the smallest COF in the game. In ADS COF the Orion shares the same stats as most other LMGs, but those LMGs that have a smaller ADS COF often if not always have a much larger hipfire COF. The fact that a stock Orion has among the smallest hipfire COF and shares the standard of ADS COF should mean that the Orion is one of the most accurate LMGs in the game. It has the among best of both hipfire and ADS while also having better DPS than the LMGs that happen to beat the Orions stock COFs thanks to a higher ROF with having the same damage tiers as both the Bull and NS-15m2. All that above would mean the same for the BJ as it is a carbon copy of a stock Orion. Then we get to "reloading" the BJ. It never has to reload at all! Not unless you spend all 45~ rounds in a single firing or close enough that there isn't more than second between firings. Keep from spending all 45~ rounds and the thing auto reloads for you without doing anything. Even with an overheat a weapon swap "reloads" it for you. That means "if" you ever live long enough to spend all that ammo and get the time to swap to your pistol/rocket/medkit the BJ will be "reloading" while you are still defending yourself. Also by the time you finish firing that pistol/rocket and reload it or popping a medkit the BJ should be fully "reloaded" and ready to use! Don't overheat the BJ and swap just before then you wouldn't have to even wait that long before returning to the fight. Mean while ANY other main weapon you swapped out of when it ran dry would still needed to be reloaded taking that much longer if you swapped early or not! Also on controlling the fight. That skill is FAR more needed on standard weapon than a weapon with a heat system. With a standard weapon you always have to account for ammo remaining in the mag and ammo pool. If you happen to find the wrong fight when in a bad shape of either you will loose no mater your skill. So you always have to pick and choose where/when to reload or if to fall back to refill your ammo pool meaning that you'd need even more control of the fight if/when those happen. A heat system weapon needs no worry on ammo remaining in the mag or ammo pool. As long as you do not overheat, where like I and yourself have said a weapon swap would take care for you, then there is NOTHING to think about but fighting. Less then half of the mental needs of a standard weapon needs in ammo discipline alone opening you to have much more thought going to the fight and making the fight take that much less skill. I'll say it again, using a weapon with a heat system takes less skill in a fight than using a standard weapon. What me to go on? This post is getting wordy as is but I think I should be able to cover more ground if asked. Point is. I may be an idiot, but I am not stupid. Please do not treat me as such.
I use the actual spreadsheet not that site, but either way, that site even listen the Orion as having the standard 0.4 moving COF. The point is I have extremely large amounts of experience with both weapons and your perception about them is rather incorrect. The Orion is the better weapon for when you actually need to get serious. If you are simply farming bad players the BG will be a better weapon. Even still though it will punish you if you try to fight people too quickly. Pacing is much more important. A person who has thousands of kills is going to know how to use a weapon better then a person who only has a hundred or two. They are going to know how to best use the weapon. Sure you can use a weapon for a hundred kills and think you know how it works but you are no master of that weapon. Just because you have 8.5k TOTAL kills doesn't mean you know how to use every weapon. Furthermore, I assume this is your main; http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Chewy102 You have very little experience with infantry weapons as a whole. If you are running an Orion with a Laser sight you are doing it wrong. Plain and simple. You use a foregrip to remove the Orion's annoying jittery recoil. Your understanding of VS recoil is highly questionable. The VS actually do have horizontal recoil. Since you play NC, the VS actually have more horizontal recoil then any NC LMG. The simple fact you are even talking about the Orion's hipfire is also questionable at best. You shouldn't be hip firing it ever, unless you are standing on a person. A distance that any LMG will be able to hit. The Orion having an above average hipfire COF doesn't make it one of the most accurate LMGs in the game. By and large people don't really consider hipfire on LMG to be a very important thing. If its good fine, if it isn't whatever. You do realize that an almost overheated BG still has about a 2 - 3 second cooldown right? It will reload about as fast as an NS-15. If you overheat the weapon it will reload in about 7 seconds. If I overheat my weapon and STILL manage to kill you, you got out played plain and simple. You deserved that death. People fail to understand this. Past this I don't know why you are explaining how my heat mechanic works, I know it very well. I know its limitations and its strengths. People who have never used a BG have this strange idea that they will never have to stop, that simply isn't true. Accounting for your ammo isn't controlling a fight. I am talking about knowing where, when, and how to engage. Knowing when to back off. Knowing how and went to bait people. Knowing how to kill more then one person back to back. These things are very important with and Orion and even more important with a BG. They both suffer the same issue, the latter suffering more. You have to know how to make that ammo work. You keep bring up this idea of reloading. If you are forced to your pistol with and Orion and get the kill, odds are you are going to have enough time to reload anyway before you fight another person, or you are going to make sure you have enough time. The only difference I just have less downtime. If you honestly think using a heat weapon takes less skill in a fight you are AMAZINGLY wrong. Heat weapons will punish you more then any weapon in the game. If you can't aim with them you are going to be HORRIBLY screwed. If you can't down 2 - 3 people with 50 rounds then switch to a pistol and down a 3rd or 4th you are going to be in serious trouble if you try to use a BG and expect any degree of success. If you don't have 25 - 30%+ accuracy and HSR you are going to be punished hard. You arguments are formed having NEVER used the weapon. Your understanding of its limitations and how they actually are is poor at best. No VS player will tell you the BG is a bad gun. They will tell you that that is only really good for farming bad players. Good players will wreck you.
True for any weapon. Not just heat systems. And I counter this by saying that with standard weapons you need to both pace and account for remaining ammo in both the mag and pool. Heat system weapons need only to account for the ammo in the mag. Take a look at my profile again. I play 3 classes almost exclusivity. Medic, engineer, and MAX. I do not play the game as a killer. I play the game to be support. Even when playing as a MAX I do not focus on killing but supporting my team by holding my ground so that a job can be done. If I wanted to be a killer and rack up thousands of kills I could, but I wont as that gameplay bores the hell out of me. I need a reason to kill or I do not play. Killing to kill isn't a reason for anyone but a madman. Also, in case if you hadn't noticed yet but my profile says that Iv been playing since launch. Iv played PS2 beta for months before launch. You'd think that someone who has played a game for over 2.5 years would have some experience in it. All because I don't choose to be a reasonless killer, you somehow see me as less or someone that doesn't know anything. I have few words on how this makes you sound. Hipfire on an LMG is an important part and you saying having among the smallest means nothing when the weapon also has no negatives to ADS COF. Need I remind you that the Orion also has a .75x move speed on ADS? So not only is the Orion, and the BJ, among the best hipfire LMGs they are among the best ADS LMGs from being standard with having that .75x move speed without getting any negatives anywhere. You do know that there is nothing stopping you from using any and all the ammo you regain within those seconds right? So you use 90% of the mag and run into a guy as you go for cover. Any other weapon would have only a few rounds left IF the user didn't already start reloading making him a sitting duck. But a heat weapon has that 10% plus any that was regained without any time of you being unable to return fire. Hell, a heat weapon wouldn't need to go for cover or wait for a restock to start with and have pushed on. It isn't? In every bit of gameplay I see that shows the BJ or another heat weapon I see them never stopping but to pop a medkit or if they die. Any lulls in time they have would have been with any other weapon, but unlike standard weapons. Heat weapons do not need you to be defenseless and/or wait on reloading the weapon. Any maneuver done with a standard weapon adds reloads/resupplies to the time it takes to do it. Heat weapons cut any and all reloads/resupplies out of that time making anything they need to do cost much less time as travel between points of often many times over covers the needs of a cooldown. Compared to standard weapons, heat weapons don't stop. Dude. What the hell?! Now I know you don't know what you are talking about. Knowing when to advance and when to back off is MASSIVELY influenced by your ammo counts. Knowing your ammo counts is far more vital than almost anything but your HP values. Advance before you reload? Dead. Fall back to late and run dry on ammo? Dead. Misjudge the shots to kill? Dead. This also puts pistol ammo counts into choosing how to control a fight. To add to this. The standard weapons have both a limited mag size and ammo pool to account for that never change but lower till a reload/resupply. Heat weapons only have the mag size but that mag is seemingly unlimited depending on each length of fire time and time between firings. 2 ever lowering things compared to 1 time based thing that is seemingly unlimited. How can you even start to call the BJ more limited? Read the typed just above again. Heat weapons need only flat time to be accounted for in a fight as any time spent with the weapon, equipped or not, works for cooling it down. Standard weapons need to account for fire time, remaining mag count after said fire time, remaining ammo pool count, and forced defenseless reload times. Heat weapons 1. Standard weapons 4. Yes, heat weapons take less skill to use in not only the number of things to be accounted for but in that fact that the weapon does all the work for the player in what is needed to be accounted without a single input needed. This is getting to be the same as when people defended the old and clearly OP Magrider, ZOE, Striker, what not. People claiming "they are only good against bads", "you don't know what you are talking about", "it is really worse than you think it is", "those stats mean nothing", "we are just that good", "get better and maybe you'll be able to counter it", and more. Im done for tonight.
I see we are beating this poor dead horse again.. Just accept that the VS on Emerald are more organized than the TR/NC and move on.
Damage per magazine is a thing that TR and to a lesser extent NC don't really have to worry about where VS have to think about it on a constant basis. Furthermore, regular weapons actually tell you how much ammo you have left in your magazine where heat one's don't. Not to mention that if you overheat with the Betelgeuse now it's about a 7 second reload, which is one of the longest reloads in the game. No, you really don't. Playing MAX, Medic or Engineer doesn't mean you know anything about LMG's, their mechanics, and the reasons how and why they would be OP or balanced... you know what you would actually need to know to talk intellegently about LMG weapon balance. Furthermore, you have zero experience with even the Orion so you're literally inventing how accurate that gun and the BJ is. HAHA! Thank you for proving the exact point I just made above. Once again, you have zero clue how the heat mechanic works on our directive weapons. There is a delay before the heat starts dissipating and there is a very long delay if you actually reach the heat limit which is why pacing and controlling the flow of a fight is important, and why I usually run an ex mags Flare instead of my BJ. My almost 7 second reload on the BJ says otherwise. Also, you're entire argument is based on watching video's of other people (better than myself or even Shanther are)... which is like only watching NBA games and crying that the team your kid is going up against is OP because they're wearing the same uniform. Those are highlight video's from some of the top players in the game... they would make any weapon they use OP and until you actually use a heat mechanic gun you have zero idea about how their drawbacks work and how to play within the confines of those drawbacks. And you don't know how many rounds you have left before you overheat. The unlimited ammo bit is kinda nice since I'm not tied to an engineer which is huge when I'm playing LA but I still have limited ammo on my UBSG. Also, VS as a faction have the lowest damage per magazine and lowest damage per load-out. Heat weapons removes only one but then takes away our only advantage which is our fast reload times. Again, if you overheat the weapon you have a very, very long wait before you can fire it again since it needs to fully cool down(about 7 seconds) before you can fire a single round. You would know this... but you have proven time and again that you don't understand how heat weapons work. The Magrider at release was OP. ZOE was OP. Striker was OP. The Betelgeuse, Eclipse, and especially Darkstar aren't OP since they have some very severe drawbacks that you are refusing to acknowledge because you're a bad and get farmed by them constantly.
Which is why they need to get off their bums and FIX this idiotic game mechanic It makes for the absolute worst gameplay. Period. Redployside NEEDS to go. There are literally dozens of solutions proposed on reddit that would make the game better (some better than others obviously, and some really aren't that great but at least address the primary issue some) Does this mean making the game slightly less immediately accessible for lone wolfs/new players? YES! So lets do something about that to. But not with a ridiculous mechanic that allows mega zergs to squash every decent fight on a server without end or even a delay. If they actually managed to do that with logistics, I'd give em props to being so well coordinated.... AND there'd at least be some delay in them hopping around... AND you could stop a few from getting there at least. Redployside SUCKS and I'm not going to get heavy back into this game until this crap is fixed.
With the exceptions being thr GD22S and the MSWR, all of the other TR and NC weapons have more ammo then the Orion / BG do. While you do have to worry about when you reload you have to worry about it much less then I do. I have half of your ammo. Knowing how to back off and get a reload or let my weapon cooldown is very important. Furthermore while I can see my heat bar I don't actually know how many bullets I am able to fire off. There have been times where I go to kill someone and overheat becaues i didn't have enough ammo left, I thought I might, but I had no way to be sure. You have next to no experience playing as a HA, you have next to no LMG experience on any faction, and you have absoutely zero Orion experience. You know how to play the game but that doesn't mean you are an expert about weapons you don't use. Your argument about the Orion's accuracy is proof of this fact. No hipfire really isn't important on LMGs. Plain and simple. You shouldn't be ever hipfiring an LMG unless you absoutely have to, IE a person is touching you. A distance where any LMG can hit if they are hipfiring. 0.75 ADS speed doesn't give you nearly the benefit you are trying to imply it does. It isn't going to make you a better player. You are not going to get a higher KD because of it. A heat weapon absoutely has to go for cover and wait for a cooldown. If you don't you will be punished for it. Going into a fight with half heat is asking for trouble. You want to be going into every fight with zero heat. It entirely depends on the fights. If your engagements have enough space in between them you don't need to stop. If you know there are a bunch of people around you are going to play as if you have an Orion and need to reload. You are far from defenseless when you are reloading a weapon. You can do the same thing BG users do and switch to a pistol to kill someone, then finish your reload. I do this all the time, even with a BG. There are a lot of times I will do this and still have a second or two left on my cooldown. Even when I used an Orion or SVA my limiting factor was almost never ammo, it is medkits. With the BG I am concered about how much damage I am taking and how many medkits I have. So instead of worrying about ammo, which I never really did anyway, I spend my time worrying about how many medkits I have and if I need to get more. I don't play passively. I also reload constantly. As long as I have ammo left I will keep pushing, until I run out of medkits. If I run out of ammo I will use my pistol / rockets until I find ammo or redeploy and do the same thing over again. As said above, you have no idea how many shots you actually have left with heat ammo. You always want to be at full before you do anything. All of that said, knowing how to bait people, control lanes, trick people, using angles, using cover to do all of the former. That is controling a fight . Knowing how much ammo you have and if you are safe to reload is simple awareness. BG has to worry about fire time, heat, if it has enough ammo to engage if a person shows up before cooldown, making sure they don't miss, the pace of their engagemenst, 7 second reload times if they overheat, and their ability to kill / stay alive if they overheat. See it is really easy to make one side have more things to worry about. The one thing you can't make up though, the BG punishes bad aim and puts you at a disadvantage against people who can aim. At the end of the day the Orion is actually a much better weapon for when you need to play serious. If you want farm bad players all day the BG is better. You trade accuracy for farming power.
My only complaints about the VS are constantly getting cheesed by Mags on hillsides spamming the spawnroom and ruining a potentially good infantry fight and the flare gun abuse. I think they do that to drag people's machines through the dirt and it really sucks taking a huge FPS hit because a bunch of tools are outside popping fireworks. I really don't think they are overpowered or have easier weapons, for the most part it's just that they have a much higher population of very skilled players. They get it done and that's how war works, you don't try to make it fair!
Oh I agree, they need to fix it, its way to easy to map hop using just a squad leader. And that was born out of a lazy community asking for tools to make it easier to get to your squad. That's all well and good, bit what we wound up with was a one way ticket to ignoring other aspects of the game. The question is, do you really need a player to be able to deploy on their squad across the map from anyware every few minutes? If they want to keep the ease of linking up it needs a hard cap timer set at like 20-30 minutes to prevent such wholesale abuse.
Squad leader spawn should be on some long timer. Or just when you join a squad... with an exemption if you just left the squad/platoon so you can't abuse that either. It's good for getting someone to the group when they join. After that, it's part of squad management to move people together.
You have no idea how many times my outfit alone has turned a 60% NC/VS vs 40% TR (or worse) around with effective team-play. These days the only way even 2-1 odds will dislodge us from a point is by MAX-crashing us in time to wipe us, and some times even that has failed them. We are far from the only outfit on Cobalt that does this, population is not the be-all-end-all of PS2 battles. It sure helps to have more bodies though, but if that was the only criteria, the NC would dominate all servers, all the time.
Redeploy should be fixed. It's completely useless if you're not in a squad. You can redeploy, wait the ten seconds (assuming you don't give/take damage), wait for the spawn timer (about 5 seconds), select the base closest to where you want to go (because you'll never have the option to deploy where you want to go), wait for the loading screen (my poor PC has a loading screen for everything, even going through a teleporter, or spawning at a nearby AMS), and if you're still not close enough to where you want to go, repeat the process. Or you can spawn a flash and drive where you want to go (assuming you don't encounter a single enemy). If you're lucky you'll have the option to spawn at a large outpost with an aircraft terminal, and dump 250+ resources for a taxi that you'll abandon in a few minutes.
That damn flare gun is so annoying for someone who plays by ears as much as I do... I know at least the LMGs of the other factions, and I keep saying, I'd give up every VS LMG if I could trade the whole of them for the Carv... that aside, VS pull the very most MAXes in my experience, VS medics are the most responsive ones across the factions, I believe we also tend to have the most support players and on my TR I regularly feel like I'm playing with a bunch of BR < 30 headless chickens... Most of the time there's at least one guy on VS side I can follow around and flank enemies from two sides with...I dont experience this much on other sides. And it all can work entirely without communication. The amount of infiltrators I have to call my allies on VS is very frustrating, but at least they're where they're supposed to be and I can try to make use of them... Playing TR I feel more like a minor deus ex machina, or generally very lone. Spotting enemies? Not with the TR. You notice that lone wolf mentality, at least on my server, in that VS are usually in an air and vehicle minority and are more reliant on allies, whereas the Prowler on a mountain (or the dozens of them) belongs to Esamir as much as the lack of a nighttime.
... are you asking for redeployside to actually be made WORSE?? People should be encouraged to join squads more often as well. I join and leave squads all the time. They decide to go somewhere I don't want to go? Leave, join another. What I'd do: Make it so any base that can have it's point flipped, cannot be spawned at unless already in the region. ALL other bases on the map (that are 'locked') can be spawned at. The lets you spawn 1 base away from any fight. As an attacker, flipping next lattice point also locks that base from being able to be taken (unless they have another link to it) Remove squad spawn magic. Only allow it on joining a squad with rules in place to prevent quit/join abuse. Hidden timer (10-30minutes) maybe. AMS's and squad spawn points are available within 1km of point of death With these rules all individuals and squads could spawn relatively close to anywhere on the front line... but would need to then travel there. Therefore tanks would suddenly have an actual role in preventing reinforcements to a base, Gal drops would be required for platoons to quickly reinforce, etc. We'd have our Planetside back.
God I want to be an ***-hole right now and just trash talk both of you. But Im going to try one more time with another route. Videos of players who DO have the heat weapons and are using them. The most recent videos I can find showing BJ gameplay. Just watching them being used by someone that clearly has the weapon and knows how to use them. Maybe not masters, but this should be good enough. First video. At 0:03 he gets a kill using maybe 1/4 of the heat bar, at 0:04 the weapon is 100% cooled down. Then at the start of 0:38 he uses 1/2 of the heat bar, at 0:39 it is 100% cooled down. At 1:29 he uses around 3/4 of the heat bar and at 1:30 he fires some more then pops a medkit, at 1:33 the weapon is 100% cooled down before he even fully equips it. At 2:30 he uses around 80% of the heat bar and fires a rocket, at 2:33 it is 100% cooled down and again before it is fully equipped. At 2:38 he uses 99% of the heat bar and swaps to his pistol for a few kills then gets the hell out of there to reload the pistol + pop a medkit, at 2:51 it was 100% cooled down long before thinking of equipping. 3:17 long video and not one moment of downtime for the BJ. Not a second outside of weapon swaps, equip times, and death that any and all weapons would have had. No reloading, no waiting on a cooldown, nothing but pure action in that entire fight. Any moments of travel or gaps between shootings was many times over the needs of any of his cooldowns. And Id bet that if you counted the number of shot he fired you'd find it to close if not more than a total ammo count, mag + pool, of many other weapons. Second video. At 0:20 he uses 99% of the heat bar, at 0:23 it is 100% cooled down. At,,, never mind. I don't think I need to list time slots again when it shows more of the same. Try to downplay me all you want. It isn't going to change a thing. Attacking me works against you if you haven't figured it out by now. I can even show more than this. My so called made up information, gameplay videos, and what not. Let me show you just how the BJ preforms compared to other LMGs and go as far as dare ANYONE to find a stat that shows the BJ preforming under ANY LMG in ANY stat other than total uniques and/or total playtime hours. http://ps2oraclestats.com/ This isn't my first time in a debate. Get better. That is unless your goal is to simply keep your toys as long as possible and are just trying to downplay anything you can with baseless and worthless information. If that is the case then I can only feel sad and pity for people like that. Those that need such things so badly.
I am going to make this EXTREMELY simple, the first video you linked is a video made by one of my outfit mates. I play with him on a regular basis. All of the top HAs in the game agree on two things. 1st) The BG is god damn amazing for farming bad players and 2nd) The Orion is a better gun against anyone who can aim. I personally don't think the BG needed the few extra rounds it got, but whatever I'll take them. Finally the issue with looking at Oracle stats for the BG is it isn't deflated by hours of bad play and it is padded heavily. If you were to reset peoples Orion stats (and remove the BG) you would see the same result. Hell if you were to reset the stats of any top player you would see the same result. At the end of the day your understanding of the BG is strictly videos of it being used. Which by the way are them farming really bad players. When you use the BG for a length of time let me know.
