VS were never supposed to be in PS2- that explains faction traits crisis and lack of vision for VS

So according to latest interview with Higby (former Creative Director at former SOE): https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/kidriots-interview-with-matt-higby.216038/ :

Planetside 2 was supposed to have only two factions: TR and NC. Also there was no MAXes in plans to be at release date. But than Higby came and convinced rest that VS and MAXes are two very iconic thigns for PS2 and they need to be implemented in game. So VS were add as a last faction, and didn’t receive proper design decisions to actually make some “faction traits” for them and overall create vision of what VS weapons/vehicles etc should present.

Now when we know those facts it is not hard to tell why VS is the “no-bullet” drop faction, which has most useless trait in the game and in reality has no other “faction specific” design for their weapons. Everything had to be probably done fast so there was no time to sit and design VS arsenal in unique way so VS were throw in the middle of NC and TR, hoping that this will do.

When I think about it, it does suit nicely. Lets take a look at NC and TR factions traits:

1. Weapons:
- slow ROF/High DMG vs Fast ROF/Low DMG.
- High vertical recoil/low horizontal vs Low vertical/high horizontal
- Shotgun MAX vs Chaingun MAX (aren’t people love in games both shotguns and chainguns?)
2. Tank- Slow, High Damage, Armored Vanguard vs Fast, low Damage, less Armored Prowler
3. ESF- Fast afterburner Reaver, slower vs slower Afterburner, faster Mosquito
4. MAX and MBT abilities: NC MAX and Vanguard- Shield vs TR MAX nad Prowler- Lockdown.

And so on.

Now it is clearly how hard was to put VS somewhere and design they whole arsenal with something unique in mind. Differences between NC and TR were clear enough to easy design new weapons (just follow rule low ROF/high dmage vs fast ROF/low dmg etc), easy balance between two factors, instead of three factors and generally there was clear choice for players to pick between factions. Murica BUM! vs Russia DAKA! (I know I know, but lets just grab context here).

And then you have to throw fast third faction. With lasers, flying tanks and supposed advanced alien technology (but you can’t give them that since balance!).

And you have a problem we face today: some lazy guy thought that no bullet drop matters anything in this game and easy way was accepted and implemented as a faction trait. Now every VS weapon had to be somewhere between NC and TR but no the same, being unique but not too much etc.

That is way we have a mess with faction traits for VS- they were not supposed to be here. Nobody gave it enough time to design plasma/laser weapons unique enough to have their own character instead of slapped nerfed/copies NC and TR guns.

Only thing I do not understand- if Higby was the one who wanted VS to actually be in PS2- why did he fk up so hard balance for them- I am talking at both OP things like old ZOE and UP things like trash weapons. You can also compare designs for MBT abilities: NC and TR- battle unique abilities, Magrider- magburn, copy paste from harasser turbo.

And if his idea was MAXes, which even he admits was a mistake to have at release- why they were never nerfed them harder before release and why they made whole balance so hard to pull becasue of MAXes (which Higby talks about in interview). And each time you are insta-gib by MAX- thank Higby for that .

At least we know now that it wasn’t evil plot against VS. Papa Vanu was just uninvited guest in PS2.

Cheers,

How can magburner be a copy paste of the Harasser turbo when the Harasser wasn't even out for like, the first two years?

I don't know about you, but the no bullet drop thing drives me insane as a TR, slap a suppressor on some guns and you're lucky to get past like 200m without having to use your gun like a mortar.

That being said: I've rolled a Vanu to check it out for myself, and the no bullet drop thing makes me shoot worse cause I'm so used to having to deal with the world's heaviest bullets.

Comparatively the NC weapons seem to hit much harder and be fairly easy to aim.

I've only played TR so I am probably biased, but I always hate fighting VS. Their weapons are very disorienting in combat, the brightness of the particles makes it hard to see in firefights, especially at night.

I honestly dont believe him at all, simple as that.
It would be like designing a new starcraft game and not including protoss.

Also upon initial design of the game it was called planetside next, and was supposed to be basically a graphically updated version of planetside 1 with better gunplay, and planetside 1 had VS....

Maxs are another story, they totally and completely destroyed the balance maxs had in the original, powerful yet balanced. SOE as they were, decided to give them 2 weapons each (only TR had dual wield in PS1, more dakka and all that) and make AI maxs just as effective against other maxs as AV maxs, big mistake since now an AI max has no real worries. In the original an AI max would have to run from an AV max as it would not have the firepower to kill it, no chance at all. Maxs were also slow and had a slow turn rate meaning an infantry could easily run off from a more powerful max, PS2 has charge and ZOE to remove the maxs speed penalty.


In short, i dont think its VS and Maxs that are out of place, its the devs poor attempt at balancing.
I personaly couldnt imagine PS2 without VS and maxs, i certainly wouldnt play it if it was just 2 empires.

Yes, you are biased. There is tons of thread out there with math and everything that will proof you that bullet drop do not matter at all and most accurate weapons are NC one. This is not thread to explain this.

I just wanted to let people know that VS were add fast and they were not suppose to be in PS2 that is why they do not have proper designs for their equipment.

Nah, NC vs Vanu are pretty balanced.
The ugly sheep in this game is TR.
cuz anything TR has, NC/VS have the same, but better.

I have no problems beliving Higby. Let me explain why.

Simply because of overall PS2 design compare to PS1:

1. PS2 were supposed to be much easier, much less complex, with much less management (no equipment, classes etc.), much less tactics, much less everything than in PS1.
2 .It wanted to be competitive and get players from CODs and BFs because PS1 was too different to attract them
3. Best and most complex stuff from PS1 (too long list to even start, like 50-60% of it) was removed from PS2 content to simplify the whole game

Considering that I am not surprised at all that they wanted to move one step further and simplify game even more: Giving only two factions.

That makes easier time for players, for balances and what was then more important: for future dreamed competitive arena. Isn’t it simply as Counter Strike? Terrorist or Police? One wins, one loses. Easy to make content base on that, easy to make matches based on that. Easy to make Smashes with clear- NC or TR wins.

WoW? Allience vs Horde? Aion- Angels vs Demons (sort of)? Etc.

I work in game industry I can easy see that they wanted to make everything much more simply just for game to actually be popular (for masses so more simple) and not ending up like PS1 in some niche not too many players even knew about.

I can easy belive him because I see this kind of logic here, such common in today game industry.

PS. Just to add - in invterview with Higby (long time ago, maybe year ago) when he was still Creative Director he said how game and overall product progress was in pitfull/awful state when he got work there and he had like not even 2 years to make with team to release date with PS2. So I am not supprised. PS2 at launch was most bugged/imbalanced/poor content game ever, simply becasue game was unfinished and released super fast. So fact that VS even were add there at the end is no suprise for me.

Kinda glad VS was forced in by higby. Game woul d have beennboring with only 2 factions. It's funny people think there was no vision behind the VS, when they have some of the more unique equipment choices in the game. Hover tanks, lances, aoe HMG

Apart from Magrider- Lancers, Vortex, Lasher (as we have it now) were add and tweaked much later then when they had to creat major VS design/arsenal at Beta and release. First Lasher was beam and was shi**, simply becasue this stupid beam. Lasher you have now is result of much later tweaks and changes when they were trying to shape VS somehow.

But vs was also in ps1 and the vision was just fine there. I still this its a stupid statement to say there was no vision. Unless you are implying the other factions are more fleshed out (hint they aren't)

I dont agree ps1 was niche, everyone i showed it too and played it with said the same 2 things, either 'This is absolutely amazing, why have i never heard of it?' or 'This game looks awesome, but i cant afford a monthly sub for a game'. Heck most people i know say 'what?? Sony make games aswel as consoles??' (although not any more) So i blame the low pop of PS1 on a complete lack of advertising, i see 1000s literally of adverts for the new COD or the new BF, ive seen 3 in over 2 years for PS2 and saw a massive 0 in over 10 years for planetside 1. Sure they got the you tubers on board for PS2, and facebook and all that, but i for 1 cant stand you tubers and dont watch any gaming videos, dont have a facebook and dont use social media at all, call it sad, lame stupid, whatever i just simply dont have the time, an advert on TV tho will be seen by a much larger audience, imagine airing the death is no excuse video, theyd have got alot more players imo.

I just cant see it being the case that VS were not going to be implemented, i can see how it would have been easier no doubt, but i just cant bring myself to believe it. We were given alot of taster pics when it was still planetside next, im not sure how early on higby is referring to but we were given things like this very early on:

That is a VS max concept, the 2 things he said were not to be implemented.


Personaly i could see there being a meeting in which some1 suggests, 'maybe we just have 2 empires, it would be easier' and higby saying 'no planetside has 3 empires we sticking to that' sure, but i just cant believe there was any real serious plans to just create 2 empires. At that point the name planetside should also be thrown out since it in no way correlates to the original.

Thats just my thoughts, as always i could be completely wrong, but it just doesnt sit well with me everything he says.

What are you talking about? Yes- VS were in PS1? So?

VS design and vision was fine in PS1- yes. So?

What is your point? I never said they were not fine in PS1- they were because they were designed from the begging of development of PS1. Design was MUCH better in PS1- Lasher balls could bounce from walls, VS MAXes had jetpacks, VS infantry could switch between standard bullets to Ani-Armor bullets in their weapons which was their faction-specific trait for their arsenal. And some more.

My point is that as you can see (did you even watch interview?) that VS were not suppose to be in PS2. And PS2 were made by total different people than PS1. So they had to add Vanu and design them and they failed, because Vanu has NO FACTION trait at all. Do they have some unique mechanics? Yes but all factions are while having their traits- VS do not have one.

And yes, I stand for my statement that there was no vision for Vanu before release, at Beta and only after release they were slowly trying to shape Vanu in some unique way but they still failed in it.

And yes, TR and NC are better fleshed out- simply because- NC shotguns, 600/167, 200/500, shields, TR- chainguns, miniguns, faster ROF, bigger magsize, lockdown. Even recoils are fleshed out between those two. VS? No bullet drop (useless) and than what? Even Magrider Magburn is not unique, since both Harasser and Flash and ESFs have same “turbo” mechanic.

Heat ammo was (after more than 2 years) first real attempt from Higby to shape VS true faction trait. So far VS got in only in directive weapons.

Yes- there was no vision for VS. Not clear one like for TR and NC. And it suit the whole first concept of two factions only.

Please remember that all those pics were released long after Higby started to work in SOE and after he already convienced team to start work on adding VS. So yea. Besides concept arts means nothing when it comes up to designing faction traits, unique weapon mechanics etc.

Sorry, I understand that you don't want to belive it but really- that is nothing in gaming industry. It is common to totally reshape, cut off big pieces from sequels just to sell them better. No many care about what was, but about - what will sell better.

I doubt it.

If you only have 2 faction in a game like PS2 once one faction gains the upper hand it is over. You need 3 factions so the balance of power can shift based on which teams are fighting each other more.

The whole world map is also built for 3 armies.


Maybe at like the very very very start of development, but it's not like in the last 3 months they were like.....oh crap we need 3 faction now.

VS had not bullet drop and mobility. Except it ended up being OP for maxxes.

soo... we have 3 not quite done factions... and you would have us instead have 2 identical factions with 10% more of an arsenal of identical weaponry?

The TR, VS and NC all suffer from the same "lack of concept" because of how rushed development is in the business world... and personally, I don't mind. Sure they have been losing faction flavor, but the game as a whole is both playable and enjoyable. If you feel otherwise because one (or more) factions have not been 100% completed in a rushed environment funded by demanding pricks... I'd suggest finding a game you enjoy more than complaining about something that will not be removed, but continue to be improved over time.

They are the same for balance reason. The more different things are the faster you have a broken mess.

Look how much complaining happens the second one faction gets anything remotely good that is unique.

I'll not argue this logic, it is a beast of a challenge to balance "flavors" of fighting styles.

But that doesn't mean it cannot be done, the problem we have is the same any pioneer of any game had, we don't have any lessons to fall on. Sure we can use RTS's to try and learn how to balance, but that doesn't quite fit the FPS bill. And for what it's worth.. I think that SOE did what they could to please a crowd of people constantly nagging about this and that.

I only hope DayBreak can fill the shoes and surpass what SOE did.....

I think the problem with this game is your don't control the WHOLE army like starcraft 2.

You can't say....VS have the best snipers. Cause then everyone who likes snipers will end up on VS. No one will want to be the gimped version on the other team.

I think it's just harder when you only play a small part of the whole at a time

Making one thread per day, always about the same stuff, isn't going to help anyone. If we flood a little less the forum, maybe some actually insightful post might stand out ?!

OK, iļl comment it all like this:
VS trully have no some thing specific expect no bullet drop, but lets remember that only some weapon have no bulet drop. Between VS sniper rifles only 1 gun have no bullet drop... you know which one it is.
Many other factions dislike VS no-bulletdrop... why? noone shoots at range 70m+ expect snipers... shooting with automatic weapon you will got only 1-2 hits per whole mag... VS have to slow muzzle velocity to use no-bullet drop...
Now next point about tanks... Have you ever see in open field VS Magrider victory on NC Vanguard 1vs1?

I think that best point would be that every faction would have some thing cpecific...
NC have high damamge... (nut sure about armor... a bit to much to have armor and damage in 1)
TR speed and count of ammo...
VS... may be larger bataryes? like larger shield bataryes for HA and more energy for LA and Infils....

To be honest i think the vs shouldn't have been implemented in Planetside "2" which should have had "2" empires fighting for control of the planet. Plus it's easy to balance the numbers, 2000 players hmmm well let's see 1000 nc and 1000 for Tr there we go, very simple.

Well I have been trying to eliminate the VS from everywhere they are.
I am doing my part.