SMG balance - or the lack of it O_o

Does it not seem a little off to anyone else here?

Are there any TR or VS who wouldn't trade their SMGs for NCs?

Cyclone and Blitz are both way more accurate and about the same or better(Failstorm wut r u doin) TTK than VS or TRs.

First gens SMGs, I guess Eridani at least has its somewhat unique extra max damage range but I'd still take the Cyclone over it easily.

Then there's second gen: Blitz is has like 25% less horizontal recoil than Sirius, and even less recoil than the Failstorm which has worse TTK.

Damage per mag, while NC's aren't the top the higher accuracy lets you get more kills out of them more reliably. I don't think many TR are going to argue those 10 extra rounds on the Failstorm are worth its weaker dmg/accuracy either. Plus the NC have two solid options that are more distinct: Accurate higher damage versatile first gen, and more bullet-hosey higher mag size second gen. All of VS and TR's are jittery nightmares past very close ranges. Both of TRs have the same bullet damage too.

I am not saying NC needs nerf I am saying TR/VS need more balanced options with more accuracy on first generation ones especially.

Armistice and Hailstorm are accurate, only slightly less so than the NS-7. Of course this is only in ADS mode but it allows them to be slightly better at range than the other SMGs.

Nothing compares to the Cyclone, someone in design thought it would be a good idea to give an SMG the equivalent DPS of a high ROF carbine and have one of the fastest headshot TTKs in the game and on top of that still be fairly accurate. The Eridani and Armistice suffer from magazine size problems (making running anything other than ex mags on the armistice crazy) while 25 rounds is still fairly comfortable for the Cyclone, enough to justify using ALS more.

Cyclone: .212 / .304 (avg - .258)
Blitz: .3 / .3

Eridani: .3 / .392 (avg - .346)
Sirius: .4 / .4

Armistice: .347 / .376 (avg - .3615)
Failstorm: .3 / .331 (avg - .3155)

PDW/MKV: .2485 / .2485

So in order of overall horizontal recoil best to worst:

PDW
Cyclone
Blitz
Failstorm
Eridani
Armistice
Sirius

Armistice is definitely not accurate, it's the second worse, and consider its high fire rate + low damage bullets which exacerbates its recoil issues more than the Eridani or Cyclone.

The biggest imbalance though, is definitely Cyclone having PDW-like accuracy with Armistice/Eridani-like TTK.

Cyclone is lovely.

And the second is that the Blitz has way less recoil than Sirius without any drawback.

90% sure they buffed the accuracy of the hailstorm and Armistice awhile ago...

Not by much, but now I remember where I got the idea that they made the guns more accurate to rival the NS-7.

This was accounted for in my previous post.

IDK what they were trying to do with the failstorm though. If you're not going to make it compete in TTK it has to have at least better accuracy than the Blitz. And they gave it a recoil recovery buff of all things. Not that I don't burst fire some SMGs but the failstorm is not adequate at ranges it's necessary anyway.

I'd say bringing it to about .26 or .275 or so Horizontal recoil would put it in a nice niche place between PDW/MKV and the better TTK SMGs. It has much bigger mag size, yes, but it also has shorter max damage range. Personally right now I use the MKV over it, it's a no brainer choice on TR.

Sirius should get less shake, and be transferred to the heat mechanic with like 40-45 shots before overheat, hailstorm should go to 143 damage

That would help the balance out a bit for SMGs.

Haha those patch notes are a kick. Really lets you see how clueless and/or detached from the actual gameplay they have to be.

My favorites:


AF-4 Cyclone
Increasing recoil because this weapon is performing too well at range.

• Min horizontal recoil increased from 0.2 to 0.212
• Max horizontal recoil increased from 0.3 to 0.304

Yeah that'll sure show that Cyclone better than to act like a carbine!
NC05 Jackhammer
This weapon is outputting too much damage over time when using the faster firing single-shot mode. The below reload adjustments correct this.

• Short reload increased from 2.6 to 2.7 seconds
• Long reload increased from 3.65 to 3.7 seconds

Wat?

LC3 Jaguar
The below recoil adjustments are a small increase to overall accuracy

• Min horizontal recoil reduced from 0.245 to 0.243
• Max horizontal recoil reduced from 0.275 to 0.273

Wow thanks for .002 less horizontal recoil. Were they really that afraid to buff the Jaguar too much? There's tentative and then there's this.

Cerberus
Improving reload speeds to correct this weapon taking too large of a damage over time penalty.

• Short reload is faster, from 2.1 to 2.0 seconds
• Long reload is faster, from 1.75 to 1.65 seconds

This along with the odd Jackhammer change, seems to suggest they have some weird thing where they're balancing damage over very long periods of time with reloads factored in. Like uh oh the DPS over a a 5 minute period of shooting is too low! We better slightly adjust its reloads to bring it in line!

I think I understand the logic, don't agree with it. I think SMGs in general are a bit off.

Time to kill in Planetside 2 is measured in fractions of a second in medium to short rage range combat with any weapon. The SMG is I think meant to be the premiere short range killer.

I don't think there's good way to balance SMGs by tweaking the guns when any change you make is going to have a practical difference of 0.01 to 0.5 seconds in a kill time. The extra half second just means your dead that much slower or quicker, not that your any less dead if someone is in a sweetspot to exploit the client side mechanics. Reaction times are too small.

Part of the as(s)ymmetric equipment pools I guess.

I don't remember seeing Orion equivalent for the NC.

ffs, asymmetric balance doesn't mean one group gets an obvious advantage in one category while others suffer in that same category. TR has the best ARs. Do we accept it as asymmetric balance? No, we nerf and buff until balance is achieved.

Do what you want, just don't touch my cyclone

Isn't that exactly what asymmetric balance would mean? With "balance" being for every area one is makes someone else suffer in, the same ones have a area they're made to suffer in?

I really love the Sirius smg. I'm not sure why but I find it way easier to use than the blitz (even though the stats are very similar)

the horizontal shift isn't so bad unless you're trying to use it beyond like 20m or so. sometimes it can help with crazy strafers.

Not saying that NC SMGs are less or more powerful (I really think they are the better of the bunch, and I'm all for balancing), but something to consider is NC's relationship with ADAD spam. The lower rate of fire means that if you are going against a good ADAD-er you'll miss shots that punish you much harder than another faction's low damage weapons.

If this were a turn based strategy where we control all the soldiers on a faction ourselves sure.

When we're stuck actually playing as the soldiers, it's pretty lame when your guns are just worse for their role than another faction's.

Yeah, I like asymmetric balance, but having one faction be better than the others is not balanced at all, it's just asymmetric (conversely, giving all factions the same OP weapon is symmetric, but still not balanced). Making each faction different but competative is an awesome way to go, as seen by low Rof/high damage vs high Rof/low damage. Both types have plus sides and down sides and are pretty balanced.

I guess it depends if you look at a forest and miss the trees, or look at trees and can't find the forest. :\