The EM1 is why TR and VS suck

I know Nanoweave doesnt, but Resist Shield doesn't? That's news to me.

652@143 are supossed to be a medium long range support weapon, maybe has a hight ttk, but are compenmsated with low recoil and muzzle velocity, but i find unique the BULL, his rof and the highest muzzle velocity of all lmg is supposed to be a medium weapon, but his mag size short reload time and high accuracy seems to be a cqc lmg, i dont own the bull but i consider to buy it

Resist Shield would be a lot more popular if it did.

Resist shield is very popular. A very large number of the best heavy assaults use it. Pretty sure you're wrong about resist not affecting headshots but I don't have any sources so whatevs.

People keep saying that, yet "variety" is pretty much spot on factionally:


Carbine RoF

LOW - 500 550-550 577-577 600-600-600 632 652-652 653 698-698-698-698 723 750-750-750-750 800845-845 909- HIGH

LMG RoF


LOW - 500 550 577-577-577-577 600-600 625 652-652-652-652 698-698-698 750-750-750 - HIGH

AR RoF


LOW - 479 500 526 577 600-600-600 652-652-652 698-698-698 750-750-750 769 800-800-800 845 857 - HIGH
(thanks to Bankrotas)


NC VS TR NS


It cannot get much more balanced than that.

Why does every one love the 600/167 Tier so much?
Oh and by the way.
Dont you dare touching the EM1!

A large number of weapons see little to no use and these numbers even include trash like the burst fire weapons. This also shows NC dominating the lower RoF end and VS/TR the mid-high RoF end, but you don't even have bullet damage factored in, or accuracy, or many of the things that make a gun worth using or not. This RoF number dump proves absolutely nothing.

back at you.

Well, as a HA it's got pretty much no weaknesses because there aren't any blistering RoF LMGs with lower TTK. It has better accuracy than all the 143 tier options, if you consider the horizontal recoil values more important than vertical anyway - vertical can be controlled and horizontal really can't.

I guess the one weakness with the 167/600 LMGs is that they're not the Orion, lol.

For LA/Engi and Medic it's less spectacular since you have access to lower TTK via the 800+ RoF guns, but it's still the most versatile dmg/RoF option - there's no range you feel completely helpless at because you have both good TTK and good accuracy. Most other guns sacrifice more of one or the other than these guns, or even more of both. A 143 dmg .2/.2 horizontal recoil gun with 652 RoF just doesn't have anything that competes except maybe ease of use due to low vertical recoil.

There are no 200/750 weapons, or indeed any 125/500 weapons because they'd be ridculously overpowered/underpowered respectively. Bullet damage goes with RoF in pretty much all of the cases above.

Looking at Carbines for example:

Carbine RoF
LOW - 500 550-550 577-577 600-600-600 632 652-652 653 698-698-698-698 723 750-750-750-750 800 845-845 909- HIGH
Carbine DPB
HIGH - 200 167-167 167-167 167-167-167 167 143-143 143 143-143-143-143 143 143-143-143-143 143 143-143 125 - LOW

So again in DPB and ROF the NC and TR are perfectly even in "variety" (the VS loses out a tiny bit).




If what you mean by "variety" is every faction having everything the same, then you're right.

If what you mean by "variety" is every faction being balanced with respective access to RoF & DPB within thier factional traits, then you're wrong (as that is near perfect now).



I completely agree if they remove all factional traits balance will be easy, but then the game will lose a lot of flavour and overall factional "variety".

You want factions to be more unique, and use the only LMG equivalent across the factions?

The EM1 has more recoil than other 652 rpm 143 damage weapons.
600 RPM weapons have more risk vs reward, which is why I don't factor in headshots. If you miss one shot with a 600 rpm 167 damage weapon you're at a higher disadvantage than missing one with a 750 rpm 143 damage weapon.
And, do u evn the AF-4A Bandit, m80?

More NC complain about their recoil than VS and TR for a reason, if we miss a shot we're at a higher disadvantage than them, stop factoring headshots like they're some godsend, ffs.

Both kinds of heavy shields block/resist headshots, although resist doesn't block certain things like the knife or direct explosive damage

No. I'm saying that the Polaris is my favorite VS LMG because it is the most accurate and controllable one. Is that what you meant?

You are still including a bunch of worthless weapons as if they matter at all.

The Carbines that matter are:

NC: AC-X11, Mercenary, GD-7F, Bandit, Razor all have their distinct roles.
VS: Pulsar C(> Solstice), VX6-7(= or > Serpent), Zenith
TR: Jaguar(= or >Lynx, TRAC-5), Cougar(= or > T5 AMC)

TR have the most redundancy with 3 close-mid range guns that are very similar in accuracy and TTK and same for their 2 mid-long range options, VS are a little better, while NC has fewer guns that overlap in purpose.

You could toss the underbarrel carbines in but the only good sort-of good one is NC's and VS/TR only use theirs for the smoke as the gun itself sucks.

Well, if NC misses, then he/she only loses the 167 damage due to slower fire rate. TR however, might lose 2 bullets, which is much more damage.

Personally, i'm okay with the concept of asymmetrical balance as long as it's within a reasonable level.

As far as I'm concerned, the 167/600 model is as much an NC trait as the 200/500 (or 200 dmg in general), in the same breath TR have magazine size and VS have a mixture of little extras, velocity, reload, no drop.

However, i'm not really going to get that involved in this discussion, but how about I just drop an idea here:

Higher rpm 167 model with lower headshot multiplier. Thereby giving you comparable DPS but not making it overpowered in regards to headshots.

I just think you could play around with that a little more when working in faction traits.

That's just friggin horrible design, a faction trait shouldn't be a straight upgrade to the other faction's similar weapons.

Plus TR has had 167/600 RoF on the SABR-13 for a long time, granted it's a burst weapon but still.

Neither TR or VS gain that much benefit from their faction traits either. No bullet drop is negligible, VS's velocity isn't that high and with HVA often TR or NC have higher velocity options. NC has plenty of short reload guns as well.

And TR's isn't even really applied to TR's LMGs that well, and magazine size isn't their perk as much as it is a thorn in their side since the devs won't let them have it without nerfing their weapons in other ways to counter it.

Show us the math you did to get these results, my calculations show that the 143*750 would beat 167*600 every-time in a head shot dual if both users started shooting at each other at the same time based on finding the DPS of the weapons and applying a head-shot multiplier of 1.75 to the DPS (multiplier reported on the wiki), basic algebra can confirm this.

EM6/Anchor: 167*600=100,200 100,200/60 =1670 <---- DPS
Carv/MSW-R/Orion: 750*143=107,250 107,250/60 =1787.5 <---- DPS

EM6/Anchor: 1670*1.75= 2922.5 <---- Head shot DPS
Carv/MSW-R/Orion: 1787.5*1.75= 3128.125 <----Head shot DPS

Obviously the higher the DPS the better the TTK will be, clearly the Carv/MSW-R/Orion have better head-shot TTK then the EM6/Anchor.


edit: simplified the math.

http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Hitbox_Damage

Apparently you didn't try testing this in the VR which would quickly've told you headshot multiplier is not 1.75

You also can't just plug DPS in like that, damage is dealt to a limited health pool in chunks - especially when looking at headshots it matters when each bullet hits and for how much a % of that health pool more than it does how much damage it does per second.

I don't know the math myself but I know enough to know that yours is not the right math here.

I don't think 167/600 is supposed to be compared to sub-750 143 guns. Sub 750 143 guns are generally long range weapons, while 167/600 guns are generally mid.

I'm all in support of refining the roles of other faction's weapons, but that can be done with recoil patterns and velocity, it doesn't have that much to do with damage/Rof tiers.