Long Time Vanu Here, and I'm Unhappy

I hope you don't expect many people to have your back in this thread. This is an anti-VS thread where everyone is congratulating themselves on wanting the VS removed.

Maybe not *quite* as extreme as what you say (close?), but yes, you get the correct message.

Sometimes.

If people actually got in a Magrider for an extended period of time to see that it isn't an aeroplane with landing gear and K.I.T.T turbo boost we might actually get some truth spoken on the forums.

I supprot Flag...

Datamining is what balance adjustments need to be based on. There will always be whining about everything, game devs that listen to it ruin their games.

Fantastic.

Can't wait to create a multitude of team killing alts when Vanu is removed from the game then. I'm sure I can drum up, ooooh I don't know, roughly a third of the current game playerbase to do the same. Should be fun, and since we'll all be using the same weapons available to everyone else, nobody can possibly complain and the forums will be at peace.

Be careful what you wish for.

Vanu isn't going to be removed... Nerfed into the ground, maybe. The community gets what it wants.

(Just saying TR uncerted medic > VS uncerted medic/"starter" certed medic). (Oh, and Repeater >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Beamer).

What I said before? I was tired, it was like 8:00 AM, I was weak-minded and I hope Papa Vanu will forgive me.

Sorry, but i am playing all three factions, though TR least, ad all factions have their strengths and weaknesses
i am tired of all these PPA nerf threads, especially when someone mentions it being on the Scythe

PPA scythe can not fight air, at all, and has way worse damage output than the banshee which can kill a max in under one second
PPA Magrider can not fight anywhere near as good against other vehicles than a prowler with AI or Vanguard with AI because the PPA Mag does not have the Saron, and the Mag main is the worst in ALL regards
PPA Harrasser is the only thing i would consider being in need of a nerf, because he can disengage too easy, but looking at the vulcan harrasser, which is effective against tanks and infantry, scrap that

if the PPA would receive a nerf, then i don't see why the Banshee or Raven should stay the same, because these three are basically the strongest in their category there is

I have said it again and again: The VS have three basic advantages.

1) The Orion is far and away the best starter LMG. This is fact: It is the easiest to use, it is at least somewhat capable at all ranges. Having used it, I have been able to consistently get kills at greater then a hundred meters using simple burst fire methods. It is roughly equivelant to a 250 cert TR gun and a 1000 cert NC gun, and it is free. Are the other LMG's in the VS's arsenal garbage? Opinions vary, but compared to the Orion? Yeah. Can you get better results with a Gauss SAW? Sure. With dozens and dozens of hours of practice and generally only at longer ranges. Guess what heavy assaults are for? Hint, it's not long range suppression fire.

2) Their camo doesn't contain random bright glowy bits unless they decide to be absolutely fabulous and run with that teal-blue one. TR have red glowy bits, NC have yellow glowy bits, both of which are pretty easy to spot. It's not that big a deal, but it is an advantage. I say everyone should glow the same! Let all be LED fabulous.

3) The PPA is basically, right now, an easier to use Kobalt. In large field battles, it isn't all that great unless you have a hill to deflect the bursts into for splash damage. Many VS go "But it can't do anything to armor! It is balanced around that!" Well, neither can the Kobalt, Marauder, or Canister. And did you really think its unfair that an AI geared tank loses horribly to an AT geared tank? Because often I get tells about how cheesy my Vanguard shield is from baddies that try to engage my 2/2 AP/Enforcer Vanguard with an HE/PPA mag. I don't even bother using the stupid shield there.

But I am getting off topic. The real problem with the PPA is that it is laser accurate and mounted on a platform that can, using magboost, position itself in places no other non-flying vehicle can get to, allowing it to directly bombard spawn rooms in bases that were supposedly specifically redesigned to reduce or remove tank based spawn camping. It's extreme range mixed with its accuracy allows it to do this from these mountain tops it can launch itself up to. It SHOULD be a point defense gun against C4 faeries and close range infantry... like the other two empire specific AI tank weapons are. Hell, right now? It's the worst at preventing your tank from getting C4'd. With the burst fire thing and CoF bloom they are adding, it'll actually do what it should.

Many tankers from both the TR and NC get irritated about the PPA beyond reason because it wasn't touched when all SOE was saying, for months, was that the vehicle farming of infantry needed to be addressed. So now HEAT is largely useless, HE is like throwing whiffle balls, and bases are designed to prevent that infantry farming. Except whoops, this one weapon can still do it because it's on a platform that allows it to do it.

Oh of course not.
But if the choice is to either confront people with the numbers and facts we do have, or stay quiet, I'm not going to just sit here in silence. For the time being at least.

To any NC players in this thread who want to move past merely talking:
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/new-conglomerate-alliance-emerald.205161/

Looks like a NC/TR alt post.

My bad, I described the Advantage I had in mind wrong. "Slower-to-empty Ammo Supply" is vague and would seem to include multiple variables like Rounds-Per-Minute, Magazine Size, Reload Time, Ammo Supply, and more. Mixing all those just confuses things, and (as you stated) can be read in different ways, and does not really cover the point I wanted to advance. So let's go with this instead:

2) Light PPA plays like it has a larger Ammo Supply relative to the weapon itself. It does not have to return to resupply very often, and it is rarely caught in a compromising situation with a low Ammo Supply (coming across a vehicle target with too much health to kill, being too low on Ammo to be able to provide assistance to an ally, etc.). Banshee plays like it has a smaller Ammo Supply relative to the weapon itself. It has has to return to resupply more often, and it is more likely to get caught in a compromising situation with a low Ammo supply.

If we were just adjusting single stats, it feels like the Ammo Supply value for the Light PPA is larger relative to the weapon itself.

I agree that the RPM and Projectile Speed on the Banshee are better. But I feel Ammo Supply and Mag Size (relative to the weapon) are better on the Light PPA.

Each weapon is just a jumble of different stat settings. You can modify 1 or you can modify a bunch.

I agree that the ESF in general does better over more engagements with "get in, dump damage, get out". Both in terms of safety and in terms of productivity. But there are definitely some engagements where the sustained fire of the Light PPA shines, such as what I call the "fish bowl" farming, where the enemy Spawnroom is locked down and the ally zerg can just spam death on the periodic Infantry runner.

And this isn't just me being contrarian. When I fly Light PPA Scythe, and I want to be efficient, I can be very particular about hunting out the specific engagements I want. I posted a big long list on such criteria I have used with the Banshee here, and my Scythe hunting criteria fits a lot of the same points with some variances. Just depends what I am going for.

I agree that sticking around is worse across more engagements. (though again, it all depends)

That said, I almost never take reload reduction. Even with the Banshee I too Mag Size. I typically don't want to be hanging out while I reload, and it's nice to have an extended Mag during the attack run.

I run Coyote on the Light PPA Scythe, so I can hover duel about as well as I can with Banshee. So having that slimmer front profile does help in 1-vs-1.

Saron/Antares + Dual Photon Pods might be a great AI Scythe build. I dunno, cause I haven't tried it and I don't have the Certs to loadout the Saron. Maybe you can post more about comparing the 2 if you've used them. MattiAce said he likes the Saron + Hornet for a versatile build. But I definitely can't afford to Cert out Hornet and Saron both.

Also, I try to minimize my ESF vs. ESF exposure. So it's not as much of a factor depending on the Map, Population, Territory controlled, etc.

For right now, that Light PPA can be really nice vs. Inafntry. I swap now between Light PPA Scythe and Banshee Mosquito. And if they nerf Banshee to the point it's bad, I plan to swtich over to Light PPA Scythe. If they nerf Magrider PPA, I also might go back to playing more Infantry (but I don't like a number of things about Infantry, and I'm still waiting for them to put a G2A lockon on the Daily Sale since they removed the lockon from my Striker... I loved that weapon, and I never even owned it when it was OP back in the day).

..long story ..short suggestion .. play tr , vanu don't like heretics.

Those are the most soundly convincing arguments I've ever read:
One developer once said one weapon OP mentioned is too strong.
You "know" a MBT is not supposed to be accurate when moving.
Comets are objectively (OK, I'm done)...

Great post by the OP, if only others in the VS would try going on the other side for a change as well..

Speaking to some of the silliness to the whole nerf calls.

Today we were fighting over Waterson's on Esamir. NC had it and were holding 2 points and keeping us VS back. They had some reavers dancing with a few scythes but air was pretty well non-existent otherwise (or at least wasn't doing bunk to support infantry).

Just sundies outside the walls and infantry fighting inside...what comes over yell?

Whining about vanu zerging and PPAs. Despite the fact we were even popped and no PPAs were being fired around at any infantry at least. Heck we even were being pushed back gradually but whining about "omg overpowered vanu zergs and PPA"

Vanu aren't OP by weapon stats, hence data mining presents nothing. PPA needs a change for tactics reasons (COF bloom addresses that).

What IS needed is fixing/buffing NC and TR items, NOT nerfing.

Calling for constant nerfs to a faction to 'bring them down to your level' is ridiculous. If you live in a craphole apartment why do you want to wreck your neighbor's decent apartment so that it is as bad as yours? Why don't you yell at the landlord to fix what is broken in your apartment?


Orion complaints are silly as I said before, it is well rounded, not OP. Theres a difference. Being good/fair at everything doesn't make you super powerful, it makes you easy to use, which in turn apparently translates to GODLIKE POWER to people. No, thats not how it works. Call for a change for default weapon NC, you got the weapons that match up better ALREADY, thats how you fix it, not by begging for nerfs.

PPA cof bloom is probably going to go live, that deals with that.

Fractures need buffs of some sort or reworked to be effective.
Striker needs reworks to be useful again.

NC has a lovely loadout honestly of weapons, I love the ones I've used, just they seem more like a surgeon's kit. Pick the one for the job, not all rounders. And they could stand to lose ONE shotgun from the maxes for something less CQC and something that would work decently out to like 25-30m area better at least.

The main issue is people seem to want to leap onto the "NERF VANU" wagon too readily, and not try to get their own things improved where they need it. As evidenced from what I saw also, even when WINNING a battle, people start calling for Vanu nerfs, when they aren't outpopped (so can't claim being zerged), and no PPAs even being used (so why complain about the PPA?)

As far as vehicles, eh...i'm an infantry person or max user most times, but I eat enough Prowler shells to the face and vanguard shells that I've not noticed much diff compared to eating magrider shots to the face on my TR or NC chars.

To not have to return for ammo as often, when compared to the burst damage being the least impressive of the 3, isn't really anything but a minor foot note of the weapon.
I would say, and I know this is subjective, that the most important aspect of the AI guns is how long you have to loiter to do enough damage to reliably kill infantry. And based on both my own experiences with the 3 ESFs, conversations with other pilots and seeing them in action from other pilots (as both target and observer), the PPA is the weakest (although the AH is somewhat close), with the banshee the strongest by far. That said, if there's absolutely no AA or the like, all 3 will just wreck any ground they find.

The situation you describe here isn't really good for determining how good a weapon is, as you have to see them in the context of having to face at least some resistance.
For example, you don't gauge an MBT only against medics and infiltrators, but you have to remember that there are LAs, HAs and Engineers, which present a much more dangerous situation than if you don't.

So for your exact example, I don't consider it relevant to judge the effectiveness of a gun. That's just riding the coat tail of a zerg.

If you don't have to worry about your own safety, all 3 guns will flat out wreck face. Even with it's sustained advantage, the other two can deal out a lot of pain if permitted to loiter.

So to me it makes sense of comparing the fly-by damage bursts, as that's where you'll find the big differences.
For the reload thing I mentioned, that was for the L-PPA. For the Banshee and AH I'd easily agree with the usefulness of Mag size.

Well, the Coyotes are a topic of their own, and I'd prefer not to get into it here (they're OP!).
The Saron/Antares + Photon pods isn't -great- but it's good. Arguably the best all-round setup you can get for the scythe, at least as far as I can tell. Hornets are good, but that's more for AV work. The photon pods are much more reliable as heavy AA (gals and libs) and better at AI.

On the whole, use whatever you feel like. And the grounder/nemesis/hawk(?) is only 250 certs, which is rather cheap when you stop to think about it. If you really want a lock-on, that is.


I just want to make one thing clear; I don't actually believe the L-PPA is weak. Anything but.
On the other hand, I do think the Banshee is blatantly OP, and if the P.II PPA (magrider) was too good and needed a nerf, so too does the Banshee.

I'm glad I read the entire thing.

Welcome to the Terran Republic.

It's just one type of advantage.

I listed a whole bunch of advantages, some more suited to boosting AI play, some relative to other stuff. One of them was how often Scythe flips or slids vs. a Mosquito. The idea was just to list out different Advantages (big and small) that I noticed.

Some people love bigger Ammo Supply. I definitely appreciate it.

I think I'm more in line with the last bit you said. If I minimize my exposure to dangerous enemy A2A and heavy G2A, and this lets me run less versatile Loadouts and just focus on efficient farming, AI, or whatever it is I am looking to do.

I often ride ally zergs when using Banshee or Light PPA. I try to stay closer to my faction's Warpgate, stay on Indar or Amerish, and don't stray too close to the enemy Warpgate. All those factors add up to minimize my risk toward problem enemies, so I can run weak A2A Loadouts with less less downside.

I do fine with Banshee or Light PA. I struggled with AH, but I have a new mouse now so maybe that will have fixed it for me (my control is much better now).

Yeah, the Light PPA Mag/Ammo is so large that I would gladly trade a chunk of it for some other stat. But I don't think that's on offer from SOE.

So far I like the Coyotes. I like that they force a tradeoff to use them, and they are not Empire specific. They also provide a nice (though weak) out for Light PPA users. (I have only used Coyote on my Light PPA Scythe Loadout) I generally haven't had major issues facing Coyote.

I tend to spend less effort going after Gal and Lib now. The reward is pretty meager for the work. Gals eat up too much Ammo, sometimes can be very dangerous, and they can just land and use repair and their A2A to become very hard to kill. Libs can be easy if they aren't good, but if it's a good crew with their OHK Dalton, then they are just too risky for me. And both can be a big problem if you get another enemy Air add while you are taking them on. (usually) No thanks.

I'd like to Cert up and try the Hornet. MattiAce had high praise for it, and the performance stats for it are very good.

I'm so tired of the super high prices of Certing up ESF Loadouts, and how much SOE has cycled through nerfs and buffs to make ESF stuff I dumped Certs into now substandard.

I have 6 characters (one of each faction on 2 different servers), I'm not a member, and I try to Cert up them all. If I used SC, it can unlock on 2 accounts instead of one (all 6 if NS). And right now with all my ESF Loadout wants, 250 Certs is not an amount I want to deviate to Infantry G2A: especially when (1) I'm not playing Infantry much, and (2) I don't trust that SOE wouldn't nerf/change whatever I picked up (like they have done to a lot of items) and put me back at having nothing worth using again.

I think the Banshee is OP. And I think the Mag PPA is OP. I think they both need to be nerfed.

That said, I think both Banshee and Mag are just the tip of the iceberg on the problem. For Mag PPA, I think there is not enough good AV right now. For the Banshee, I think there is (1) not enough good G2A unlocked by people, (2) ESF is too versatile, and (3) other noseguns are now too weak vs. Infantry and vehicles, which makes them all ESF A2A and that is a role many pilots don't want to or can't tackle.