Stalker cloak facts and analysis - An unsolvable conception problem?

I've forfeited using the stalker cloak (and thus the infiltrator since other option are not "infiltration" to my opinion), because even if it can give short streaks of fun, used as a main class, it is a really frustrating and unrewarding tool to my eyes.

I feel this to being a waste, because stalker cloak is really the incarnation of what someone called "infiltrator" should behave, but it just don't match correctly the other infiltrator elements and the state of the game. Let's start with a few "Stalker facts" (or SF, for short):

SF #1: A stalker is unlikely to win any fight where he doesn't start by a well-done surprise alpha-strike
A stalker has no primary weapon, and the difference of firepower it implies just makes unlikely a standard fight will turn in favor of the stalker except if the opponent has a very inferior skill.

SF #2: Planetside 2 doesn't feature invisibility, but only concealment, meaning that a moving stalker will be always spotted unless a player has no LoS, is really too far away, or is busy with something else
This is not just a matter of deep cloaking or not. Human eyes react strongly any movement, and concealment don't hide that something is moving. You have better chance to not be spotted being visible and immobile, than cloaked and moving... that's how human eye and mind work for most people.

SF #3: A stalker can't predict all situations where moving will be mandatory to survive even when opponents are looking
Many things happens that are fully out of control for the stalker: crossing path with a vehicle in the wilderness, having an opponent running straigth by the point where you are crouching still, having a teamate appearing, causing bullet to fly and a lost one hitting the stalker, unpredictable explosions, another stalker screwing up and making people get flashlight out... and many other things

SF #4: Stalker actions can't be made more rewarding (xp and effect on battlefield)
Those actions being shared with hunter cloak users, who are already efficient enough, buffing the rewards of stalkers actions will result in making the first ones overpowered.
Let's say you give C4 to stalkers... imagine what a hunter+SMG use will do with it... and how other players will immediatly rage about it.



Now, the consequences:

Due to SF #1 and #2, moving while being in the LoS of an opponent result almost always to the Stalker death's. It makes the whole gameplay very slow because you need to move carefuly. It also means that deaths are really more meaningful for a stalker than for all other players, because stalkers takes really longer to bring back into the battle after a respawn.

Adding the SF #3 to this, there are plenty of situations where a stalker gets killed even if he played perfectly, just due to random, out-of-control, and unpredictable events. Turning the stalker cloak into something often frustrating due to the amazing amount of game time wasted by those deaths.
For other classes, you die sometimes unfairly, but come back fast. For stalker, you die unfairly even more often, and come back really really slowly.

If could be acceptable however if all this difficulty and frustration were compensated by good rewards, but this is not the case: even in a kill streak, a stalker will gain xp slower than any other class (due to more time requiered in positionning) and as far as utility goes, stalkers only do hacking better than hunter... but hacking have really few effect on battle in the current state of the game.... now, remember the to SF #4: This is not likely to change.
This means that stalker actions will probably never become enough rewarding to justify those drawbacks.



What it means, once sumed up:

Stalker is fun for occasional use, because ambushing a few people on vehicle terminals are fun for a few minutes, or fun for people being really RP driven, but for all other players, it will turn quickly into a nightmare of inefficiency and frustration.
You will not have good results compared to the time spend working to get them while wearing the stalker cloak, and you will have many occasions to just get mad about continuous wasteful deaths that are caused half of the time by your own allies.
Alas, the whole way the game is currently will probably prevent this to be fixed due to the probable side-effects on SMG infiltrators.



The only way I see to fix the imbalance of difficulty/rewards for it would be to makes tools only usable by stalkers cloak bearers, allowing them new and rewarding infiltration actions that hunter cloak users would not be able to do.
However, this is a lot of coding to do for only a class... no, worst: a sub-class... in a game who have already a lot of important changes in its roadmap, waited by almost all players, so I'm not naive enough to put a lot of hope into such a change someday...

The stalker cloak is currently a marvelous idea that I would dream to be made worthwhile, but which is probably doomed by the way the PS2 infiltrator has been designed from very the start and which is uncompatible with the needed changes to reach such a goal.

Now I agree with the principle you are putting forward here:

Stalker Cloak need some love!

I agree, the way the stalker cloak is set up at the moment doesnt give enough benifit for not having access to your primary weapon.

This is however simply fixed:

Make the Stalker less visible than other cloak types all the time. You still have to decloak and use an inferior weapon to win any engagement BUT atleast you have a chance to get to the engagement without detection.

The only thing i dont quite understand is why it takes your Stalker longer to get to battle than any other type on Infil. After death, you have the same spawn locations, same amount of time to respwan and all the same tools available?

You've definitely identified some major challenges for stalkers, but your conclusion is a bit grim. Keep in mind that stalker infiltrator is one of the higher-skill roles in the game, and if you put in the time, you will find yourself doing much better. One of the first things I learned to do as a stalker that made me feel effective was to sneak to the shield generator, set it off, and ambush anyone trying to stabilize it. This is fairly easy to do, it helps the team, it earns you decent xp, and you're almost never going to be killed by friendly fire while doing it. It works best in small or mid-size fights, but it can be done in zerg fights, too, if you can get past the front line.

It sounds like the primary source of frustration for you is getting killed by stray bullets or allies, but if that's a consistent problem for you, it's probably your own fault for trying to run directly through the front line all the time. 90% of the battle for a stalker is knowing where to go and whether it's worth the risk to try to sneak there. Trying to sneak through the zerg is usually very difficult, and once you get through, there are still eyes everywhere, so you'll probably get one kill before being shot from all directions. You may be better off taking the long way around the base and sneaking in from behind, or you might just sit near the front and pick off unwary enemies.

Recently, the place I've been most successful as a stalker has been just behind the enemy "turret line." I put than in quotes because it's not so much about the turrets themselves (although they are a great way to identify the place and the operators are easy to kill); it's the line where the attacking army sets up to provide supporting fire. It's that place where everyone is facing the same direction, hardly moving, and shooting down range. If you make it behind this line, you can knife person after person with ease. Just the other day, I went on a 20+ kill streak doing just that, along with some crossbow sniping.

I'll just ad that if it's the whole "getting into position" part that's problematic for you, you may want to try doing high altitude drops from an esf with ejection seats. Not only will it let you get where you want to quickly and in relative safety, it also lets you drop in places where people just won't be expecting a stalker because they'd need to fly to get there (or be a certain rodent), like rooftops or treetops, from where crossbow sniping can be very, very rewarding. Of course, you'll still need a lot of map and battle flow reading to find the right spot at the right time to begin with.

A cheaper, but a bit riskier alternative is the wraith flash. You may even get a few road-kills on the way.

A few rewarding places from the top of my head:
- Top of an enemy besieged tower.
- Just behind enemy lines in big battles, where snipers and turrets concentrate.
- Overloading and camping generators. If the gen is indoors, wait just outside the building, guard the entrances, and rush right behind enemies inside to crossbow-knife them (a lot of people check inside the building with darklight nowadays). Also, don't camp the same gen too long. AMP stations are nice for that, as you can get a few kills at a gen, and then leave it for another one.
- Camping a vehicle terminal. Best spots are high up (tree or rooftop), and in places that just got zerged by the enemy (lots of zerglings running to the vehicle terminal), so I recommend the airdrop insertion style. Troll-tip: If you are close and high enough and there is a crowd forming in front of the terminal, you can throw a couple of AP Mines freesbee style for extra fun factor.
- Ammo towers near big vehicle battles. Often, tanks back-pedal there to reload... and repair. Rush the engies when they get out for an instant crossbow-knife death. You can also try your luck inside the battle itself, but that's somewhat more luck based, and a wraith flash will be better at following smoking vehicle behind covers anyway).

Still, I get what you mean. As a stalker, your main xp flow remains kills, and from a purely xp/hour perspective, running smg or sniper is probably just plain better, if only because you can skip the whole "find a nice position" part (especially with smg). All that remains is the troll fun factor. That's more than enough to make me use my crossbow-stalker setup a few times a week, but I suppose it's not for a lot of people in farmside 2.

To elablolrate on what Mahaut said:

The ESF with ejection really is a great tool for the infil.... I call it my "iReaver".....

I go full fuel tanks, ejection seat, speed frame and stealth.

I also have my "iFlash" and "iTank" builds.... just make sure you take stealth, it will greatly improve your chances of getting throuh undetected.

Doing better will not be enough with stalker. Even the best stalker will IMHO never reach the efficiency of an average LA joe.

LA position faster.
LA kills more easily.
LA even destroy vehicles.

What Stalker can do better than LA? Hacking? lol...

Im not rly having some of the problems you have pointed out
Being hit by stray bullets means you are in the line of fire of the enemy in the first place.Also everyone has to deal with stray bullets I rly dislike when people say it like its the cloaks weakness have more awareness of where you are, where are your enemies and where are your teammates.Stay away from all of them

Being spotted by random players means your not flanking them well enough (just to point out some players think FLANK is to break through enemy front lines.. it is not .It is to bypass the front lines from the sides and go either from there or from behind). Im guessing you are talking about Towers as they are one of the hardest places to sneak in due to the many choke points in those buildings.Theres an easier way to sneak in to those and thats a Squad Spawn Becon.

After a successful flank you will find your self in enemy sniper/turret zone where people have tunnel vision and there is where you shine.

Stalker is rly hard to handle in big fights at first pick smaller engagements (too much random stuff to deal otherwise.)
You say it like being slow with stalker is a bad thing.Lol its point of the cloak you are given the time to think ,plan ,wait for the perfect opportunity to advance or execute your plan.

Sadly theres nothing you can do against darklight and thats the point

On August 22nd, Player name Moonheart posts a thread titled "So I tried Stalker cloak."

12 days later, on September 3rd, the player posts another thread telling us the "facts" about Stalker cloaking.

As someone who has spent a tad more than 3 weeks playing stalker, I can tell you that there are many misconceptions, and a learning curve to the class. Your inability to find them or lack of patience whilst doing so, doesn't make anything you said here relevant.

Should stalkers feel satisfied to be reducted to a trolling tool used a few times a week?

I'm speaking here of playing the stalker cloak in terms of real game objectives, to have a true focus on war participation.
And regarding this, the slow gameplay, the multiplication of unpredicable death factors compared to another class/tool, and the absence of a bigger reward (xp or objective-wise) in compensation makes this tool realy lacking compared to other class or hunter cloak infiltrator.

You can get better by training, but that won't change those three facts that would make you always less useful than other classes when they are in the hands of experienced players as well.

I love my stalker cloak. The issue is that you're thinking of everything in Planetside as a tool to make you farm more kills/get more XP. Not everything is designed to do that. I can agree that the stalker won't be the same SPM (score per minute) that you'll get out of any other class. What I can tell you is that Stalker wins battles.

I posted on another thread saying how Stalker changes battles so allow me to state it again. Stalker allows you to get to objectives and deny them to the enemy. I've sat in an obscure/unusual location just barely touching a capture point and drawn many MANY people to it. I've had as many as a squad looking for just me while I danced on the edge of the point confusing them. Combine this tactic with a second stalker and I've wiped full squads while they STILL don't know where we are (Tech Plants are great for this one). Meanwhile the rest of the friendly forces have fewer people defending the base so they can push in. This is how Stalkers were designed to work, they're tactical/strategic tools. They are not cert farming machines.

As another example I've used Stalkers to sneak behind the enemy lines and pull a column of tanks to destroy an enemies attack. I call it "Surprise Buttsecks!"

Planetside 2 isn't just "Get gun, "pwn noobs", have certs, be awesome." It's designed to be huge with facets for the solo player and roles for those who want to play as a large team. Stalker is one of those things that can be played as both, but remember that it's not about your score, its about the team winning the fight. Stalker is a support role, not a murder machine.

Ok, I get it. Stalker is perfectly fine. Doesn't need any love at all. And I'm just playing too bad to understand.

I'm not sure what the opinion is of everyone else but I did not mean to imply you are "bad". My apologies if you got that impression. What I'm saying is that you were using it incorrectly. As an example to better clarify what I'm saying.

You can drive a Nissan Leaf through a dirt trail in the woods, It can be done! Is it the proper usage? No. Does it make you bad at driving? Absolutely not. You're just using the car improperly. In the world of games design sometimes there are issues where what the developer wants you to do with something and how the audience perceives to use something are completely different. This is one of those times where you aren't on the same wavelength. No harm done. Just ask more questions next time!

Ok, so I'm not bad with it, I'm just too stupid to understand how to use it correctly. Same result.

You're just all about the self deprecation aren't 'cha?

Stupid is not the correct term either. Not understanding something until you have it explained/taught to you and being unintelligent enough to not understand the subject matter are completely independent things. You're going to be ignorant of lots of things. So don't beat yourself up. Accept that you don't know everything and life gets much easier.

Listen, you don't even know how I play... you assume I play for cert farming and never did capture point denial too.
Not only you... I have Merakov here that assume that I don't take care to make the most possible to avoid line of fire and that I try to "flank" by coming right from the front... and Mahaut that think I don't know the existance of ejection seat nor couldn't figure the best spots for a stalker to be after several weeks of intensive stalker play...

What I'm supposed to say?

You already convainced yourself that I play the wrong way without even knowing anything about me.
There is no discussion possible between us with such predicate.

Those LA advantages are real, but they're not the whole picture. What stalker can do better is (surprise) turn invisible (don't quibble over semantics here, you know what I mean). If you can't use that ability to your advantage, you should pick LA, or any other class. I've given a couple specific examples where a stalker can shine, and a light assault wouldn't be able to do those things. As I also said, I've gone on 20+ kill streaks as a stalker, which isn't necessarily Vonic-level efficiency, but it's clearly above the efficiency of the "average LA joe." But to reiterate, the classes do different things, and it doesn't matter how efficient any given LA is when you need a stalker for the job you need done. Just like you wouldn't switch to infiltrator to take out a tank, you wouldn't go LA to cross an open field and assassinate all the turret engis on the other side.

Don't take it so personally. Judging by your forum posts, you've only played stalker cloak for a few weeks. There are lots of people here who have used it many times longer. Give some credit to these people. Isn't it possible you don't know everything about the class you've only used for at most a few dozen hours?

I see that my politeness and effort to educate a newer player has been met with internet ire. I will take my Canadianess elsewhere.



AWAYYYYYY

Thinking you need to give me advice or "educate" me when you know nothing about how I play is just condescending.

I did not open this thread to ask help or love for me.
I stopped to play stalker, bacause after comparaison of the two, LA outshines it so much in my eyes that I prefer put all those certs spent on the stalker stuff into the trashcan that continue to play a tool that is underperforming so much.
The reason why I wrote this thread is to plead for YOU players that still using it. So you can get a bit of love that I truly thought you would deserve.

And what is your answer?
You answer I'm wrong and I'm just too dumb to understand evidence.

Fine. Then, keep the tool like it is, I won't ever support your cause anymore, and will relay your words that the tool is great and powerful the next time another "noob" suggest to SOE it could be improved.

If people don't know anything about you or how you play, they'll assume you're average/typical (which also means inexperienced), since they've got nothing else to go on. You shouldn't be offended by that, since it has nothing to do with their opinion of you, since they don't have one. People tend also respond to complaints as if they were a cry for help, because they usually are. Most people have a hard time distinguishing between "I'm struggling with this class" and "this class is bad," and the worse the player, the more confident they are that THEY know better than players with thousands of hours of experience and a team of devs that have worked on this game full-time for years. Again, it's not that they think you're an idiot, it's that they're responding in a generic way.

1: I god damn love my AMP

2: I god damn love my Stalker Cloak

The first is a duking, jumping, weaving, thing of 10 meters and under beauty.

The second allows me to get 10 meters and under.