New Vanguard abilities

How can you say the vg only have the sheild. Its faster and have better resistance then the magrider. And probably better dps, at least better velocity on its guns. Better turning of the main gun, bettet elevation etc.

Wow you went far enough with this there. How about that: Vanguard spawns a shield which can spawn more smaller walking shields with shield-guns, so they walking around the shield and shooting shields everywhere and throwing shield grenades and if this ability is fully maxed, you can spawn a biolab shield over your vanguard!

No, I gave different shield abilities. And this is a far cry from a shotgun with underbarrel shotgun.

But apparently you have way better idea's for the Vanguard then shields, let's hear it!

It's faster but can't dodge, has more trouble with terrain messing up shots. Their DPS is about equal when you calculate it, this is because the Magrider has faster reload but lower damage per shot. 'better turning of the main gun', what do you mean? The Magrider doesn't HAVE a primary gun-turret. It's build to always be looking at his opponent, using the strong front-armor. With high rival combat chassis levels you probably turn faster than the Vanguard turret anyway. It has better elevation, I'll give you that, but the Magrider doesn't have problems with going offroad, going uphil and negating the better elevation with better positioning.

Now back to topic. You apparently disagree with the premise of the current shield. So what are your ideas for Vanguard abilities?

Let's imagine that vanguard shield is a big mistake at all. I still can't understand what is the point of giving one tank an ability to 100% win the 1vs1 battle by just pressing the godmode key and killing the opponent while can't be damaged. So i came here because i was just curious, maybe someone just had a nice idea for another ability. Nope, just 1 million variations of SHIELD.

This is exactly why you'll never get a reasonable debate here, the above wasn't even true before the shield nerf and certainly isn't true after the shield nerf.

As the stats quite clearly show (never mind the experience of anyone that's been in any MBT ever).

You have people convinced the Vanguard is "godlike" when the realiity is they probably did something daft, died and instead of understanding why just got mad (and simply want the Vanguard nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again without reason).

It's also why the shield will likely go in the end, but again the only option for that is to bring the stock Vanguard into balance with the stock Prowler and stock Magrider (and it is significantly below presently) and then balance any new ability from there.

best solution, since all the 'nerfthevanguardorelse' faction pretty much claims the strafing and mobility of the magrider isn't an advantage at all, and the shield makes you automatically win every battle, give the shield to the magrider including the vanguard's chassis, and put that goddamn hovertech on the vanguard then we'll see how that works for them.

Man, i understand all that, but for real, this shield thing is just something that allows you to ignore my shots. If you could guide away my shells with your ability it would be exactly the same. You pressed the button, my shots did not damage you, your shots did, i'm dead. You are in fire? Press button, shoot, i'm dead, because last 2 shots were ignored by your machine. That's just sounds a bit unfair, nothing else. Shields are like massive HP buffs at all, why would anyone have more HP than other? I don't know. A agree, all tanks should be adjusted in stock and then have some INTERESTING abilities, not rule braking.

Rule breaking? Only your rules in your world.. as Bob Ross said,

This is exactly one of the things I'm trying to start here, to get people to start creating abilities for the Vanguard.

The current 'rule breaking' shield isn't exactly that 'rule breaking'. The Vanguard underperforms compared to both other tanks. The shield and the ability to shrug off a few bullets is exactly the one thing that keeps it sort of balanced, and even then the Vanguard is underperforming (not underpowered but underperforming, there is a distinct difference there). Ever heard of any Vanguard without a shield? Probably not. Still, despite every single Vanguard having and using that shield, the Vanguard is underperforming. Just look at the Prowler and Magrider now. Do they use their ability in every battle? No. A Magrider uses it to get away fast, and I don't see that happen every single battle. A prowler rarely Anchors, especially in the middle of a battle. Despite this difference, that the Vanguard can and will always use his ability where the other two don't, the Vanguard is underperforming.

Weird eh? The only explanation is that the Vanguard chassis itself is underpeforming. The annoying shield is the only thing setting things in some kind of balance.

So, please come with new idea's. Abilities, weapons, changes to the chassis or whatever that allow the Vanguard to become more on-par with the Prowler and Magrider. It doesn't need to be a shield. It could be the ability to cert into higher elevation for the gun, The ability to dig itself into the ground so only the turret shows, an clusterbomb around the Vanguard dealing damage to all infantry and tanks allowing the Vanguard to burst-damage in close quarters, an extra missile rack that can be fired every so often as an ability. Think of something, create a new ability that fits the NC and allow them to use that!

Yours sincerely,
Demigan.

That sounds like a completely useless function.
How and why would one use the shield if all it did was stoped the battle for 6-8 seconds and resume after? How does that benefit the Vanguard in any way at all may I ask?
Sounds like you just want to further nerf the Vanguard again!

You really can't just ignore them, especially not in a 2/2 tank after the shield nerf (2000 isn't enough to just ignore the DPS) - if you are 1/2 tanking to be honest that's not where MBT should be balanced around (in fact the driver shouldn't be able to gun the main gun al la PS1 IMO).

But think about it there is no way to directly avoid anchor benefits or indeed negate the Mags extra mobility either.







Now they could get rid of the shield, certainly, but (as I have said) that is going to result in the stock chassis needing a BIG old buff.


And then you're into the can of worms that is what to replace it with.

- Directional shields plain suck in PS2 (as the Aegis Shield on NC MAXs shows every single day), full surround shield (as on the PS1 Vanguard, PS2 Vanguard and PS1 NC MAX) actually work.
- Most any other sort of full surround shield is going to get complained about (probably lots give that the MAX Aegis Shield gets complained about lots and it is poor).
- The only other thing than "defence" (which would likely be a shield) would be some sort of offensive option.... I can't see that ending well either (I can see the Vanguard "IWIN" gun button threads already) because it'd either be too good or Anchor basically.


Personally I'd probably say a shield like now, but weaker or maybe some sort of much stronger deployable shield (as mentioned in the OP as a reverse anchor) might be the best/least worst options.... but for either to work we're still back to bringing the Vanguard stock chassis up to the others MBT stock performance.

It's pointless talking to these monkeys mate. You can scream to them till you are blue in the face, show them the data they won't listen to the facts. They are as stuborn and bias against the Vanguard, and won't be happy until they feel that their toys are much more powerful then everyone else's, instead of having an equal balance for everyone.

Changes that would be good:

• Vanguard base stats improved (probably just better acceleration.) The Vanguard used to slightly underperform compared with the other tanks and the change that needed to happen was "nerf the shield, buff the base attributes" so that it was less reliant on its special ability to do well. Instead the shield was nerfed but the base attributes weren't, so it's in a bad spot right now.
• Leave the shield alone.
• Implement a new ability: Coil overcharger. Causes your next shot to do 30% more damage. Lasts 1 shot, but has a fast cooldown (fast enough that you can use it every 4th shot.)

Basically a proactive ability which improves your DPS in an NC-like way (big damage!) but which doesn't break overall damage output (the proposed stats result in 7.5% sustained DPS increase, which is less than the prowler's ~30% because this ability wouldn't require you to be stationary.)

The most important part is actually the "proactive" part. The reason the Prowler rocks is I can use a proactive ability: it doesn't matter whether someone is firing back at me or not, I'm getting a significant increase to DPS. Meanwhile the Vanguard's ability is only useful while being shot, and while that's arguably the most useful single moment to have your ability become valuable the flipside is that it means there are a lot of situations where the shield is completely useless (because you aren't shot back at every time.)

But the other factions deserve to fill out their tank abilities too:

• TR have a proactive ability, and it would be good to give them a reactive ability. Somewhere they can activate at the right moment when their tank is under fire to dramatically increase survivability. Some possibilities:
  • Firebird Device: Superior TR engineers replace the existing Fire Suppression ability with a faction-specific fire suppression that's outright better. If activated below 50%, provides and instant 15% repair in addition to the 12% repair over time (not sure on these exact numbers, the point would be to survive one extra shot, like the Vanguard shield, but only if you activate at the right time.)
• VS's ability is actually a balanceof proactive and reactive (Magburner can be used to dodge shots, escape, or to quickly flank), so they could go either direction with a new ability.
  • Wight Cloak: An 8 second cloak with a slight 10% speed boost. The system draws much of its power from the maingun of the Magrider, which remains inoperative while cloaked and for 6 full seconds afterdecloaking. 70 secs to recharge; can only be activated when fully charged.
    • Actually this ability completely fails at achieving the design goal. It's just another ability which is flexible at being either defensive or offensive. So despite sounding fun and balanceable (long long 6 secs of not shooting) this is a failure.
  • Immortality device: Adds a regenerating shield at all times. Activate to take 30% less damage for 6 seconds and fill the shield to maximum.
    • The regenerating shield would be tiny. It might absorb 75% of the first tank shell, and if you play evasive you can regen that portion of damage before taking your next hit while it regenerates back up. But it's not going to win you a straight-up TTK race.
    • The active effect is for winning straight-up TTK races providing mitigation that lasts even when the shield is knocked out.

I think they actually believe they are in the right. They do want balance, they just let their feelings decide what is balanced or not.

Just imagine how you feel if you shoot and hit someone, but the shot doesn't register. The second shot doesn't register either... You can see that you are hitting your enemy, but it doesn't seem to have any effect! It makes you feel powerless...
And this feeling is translated to their overal capabilities against a Vanguard. It doesn't matter if they actually destroyed 3 Vanguards before despite the shield, it's the one that survives and kills them because of the shield that sticks to the mind, anyone's mind. This powerless feeling influences their entire feeling of power compared to the Vanguard. A Magrider can do incredibly tactical and skillful stuff to get the better of his enemy, while all the Vanguard has to do is press the 'F' button and he gets to get a few free shots in! On the receiving end you don't notice that it's just one shot the primary cannon can do extra, especially since most Vanguards get a Halbert/Enforcer shooting you too. It's the whole fact that you can't seem to damage them anymore.

I think that if the shield visibly showed how much health it got and had a destruction animation many of these complaints would already melt away. Still, the stats show that the Vanguard is underperforming. So throw an idea down here to improve that baby!

Here are some new one's I mentioned in the previous post, most are to make the Vanguard a true CQC brawling tank:

Missile-rack:
A missile rack on top of the Vanguard. After firing it has a cooldown before it can be used again. Fires one/several rockets in one go for burst damage (an alternative to the second shot I had posted earlier).

Vanguard Clusterbomb:
The Vanguard throws launches explosive pellets away from the chassis that explode after they traveled 2 meters. The pellets deal damage to infantry and tanks and have an AOE of 4 meters. A shock-shield is deployed to prevent damage to the Vanguard as the pellets are deployed.
Allows for burst-damage to nearby tanks or to thwart infantry that got too close. Alternatively it can be used as an emergency mine-detonator. Beware, C4 on top of the vanguard can be set off as well.

Vanguard Lockdown:
Activate the ability and ram someone. The rammed tank is temporarily slowed down. Since it's probably too tough to lengthen the reload time when hit, the enemy tank+passenger will get an effect as if they are hit by a concussion grenade, only in a tank.

Electrified hull:
Deals damage to anyone withing 1 m of the Vanguard when activated. infantry get electrified, Tanks get scorched by welding like electric arches. Great for ramming and dealing damage to enemy tanks.

Chassis improvement:
Increase Vanguard weight while keeping it's current speed and acceleration. Allow the Vanguard to deal more damage when ramming enemies and to better survive debris of exploding tanks. Also give the Vanguard a stronger engine when pushing enemies. Allow the Vanguard to push Prowlers, Sunderers or any other tanks out of the way rather than getting to almost a stand-still. These changes allow a Vanguard to better brawl with enemies.
Perhaps give the Vanguard certifications for a ramming grill to deal more damage when ramming someone.

If we set aside the question of if the shield is OP or not (can of worms) - I think we can agree that the mechanics of it could at least be more interesting am I right? Pressing a button for a short burst of semi-invunerability is very "flat" in terms of its use - and by that I mean that it's not particularly fun or skillful to use - nor does it leave much room for intelligent counterplay.

You will essentially use it the same every time - as a "oh****" button when taking unexpected damage or when needing to "boost" your way through an enemy that poses a serious threat, like another tank. The only skill involved is really only having a little experience to know when it would be a waste to use it and put it on cooldown.

Similarly the only counterplay to it is "run away and let it expire" or "group gank so hard that you can take it down regardless".

I think it could have made for a much more interresting ability if it was a longer lasting powerful resist-shield that you enabled for one side of the tank at a time. Enable-disable at will with a small activation cost like resist-shield for the HA, and which side you enable it on is just a matter of which directional button you hold down while you activate (no directional key = top of the tank gets shielded). Then it would be a much more skillful tool where you could be truly tanky if you anticipated damage-directions correctly but still left you open to flanks and such. It would have a proper skillcurve with a high ceiling for using it optimally and also allow for counterplay, especially in groups.

Just my opinion. I'm just not going to waste a lot of time arguing if the current ability is OP or not. I think the latest balance-pass on it made it at least more reasonable, but it's still very boring and flat.

I think really that out of the tank abilities on the magrider one is a good, fun and dynamic one. the other two are powerful but boring in their own ways. I always really wondered why the prowler which was supposed to be the faster lighter tank has an ability that makes it immobile and has an AV secondary is obviously made for very u close and personal ranges. Seems like very conflicted design is all I'm saying.

-Stigma

Mega Mag Cannon: for a short duration make all main cannon shots do an additional slow "burning/magnetic charge" damage over time after the initial hit.

Could have an energy level that depletes with usage and slowly while active, recharges when turned off.

Because balance. Prowler has the DPS, Magrider has the mobility, Vanguard has the durability. You can take away the durability from the last one but only after Prowler loses about half of its DPS and Magrider doesn't have straifing and turret stabilisation anymore.

In terms of pure KPH the vanguard wins, but the better mobility is defenitly in the hands of the magrider. And I wouldnt say the mag has less DPS then the vanguard either (4% less DPS when comparing main guns, and if we add in secondary's the mag+saron does more DPS then a vanguard+enforcer can do). Without the shield the only thing the vanguard has going for it is slightly better armor, which makes it need 1 more shot from the side and 0 more from the front compared to the mag. Combine that with the fact that the vanguard is hands down the worst tank vs AI and has a horrible turn-rate and you know why the vanguard would be junk without the shield.

Stop this please. You're going nowhere with such assumptions.
And to all the complainer here, just keep dreaming to better worlds, the numbers gonna keep vanguard away from new nerfs. Just the opposite I think or a radically modified ability for being less 1/1 and more 1/x.

Well I'd make it more like the aegis shield than the HA limit. Whether you have 5 seconds left of 50, it's health is the same. If it's health diminishes over time then it's role in pushing up and providing cover for infantry diminishes as well, since not only is their shield naturally weakening but shots make it weaken even faster. It should be a simple matter of either overpowering the shield or waiting for it to go down. This would allow it stick with infantry and actually provide them direct support as tanks are suppose to do. Would still piss off magrider drivers though so we'd still just have a "VG shield op plz nerf" thread.

Still seems like a pain in the *** to balance but it could work I guess.

That new idea is better but I, personally, would rather a shield.