How do you justify the pay-to-win?

I paid for membership because queues, I've bough SC because sales and deals ($5 off per card, x10 cards, combined with double SC when you redeem them is awesome) and I buy **** with it because I can. I buy mostly cosmetic stuff anyway, it's not like I'm buying kills or anything to make me better than you. The member certs are nice I guess, but I'm at a point and have been for a while that I don't even have anything to really spend them on...nothing I use on a regular basis anyway.

Don't want to spend money? That's fine. Think you're some holier than thou purist for doing so? Sure buddy. Calling it P2W in a game where you can obtain the same **** without spending a dime? Total malarky.

I think the term "Pay-for-Convenience" is a better way to put it. There is nothing in the game that you can buy that gives you a clear, overall advantage over the standard weapons (well some vehicle weapons seem to be on a higher tier, ie. AI/AV MBT turrets, but even these are mostly balanced well). Like what was already stated, there is a very small degree of "Pay-to-Win" involved but it is so marginal that it is very acceptable (like boosts).

That said I think SOE is handling implants in the opposite way that they should be (should be more like they were in PS1 IMO) and these will add more of a pay-to-win aspect to the game more or less depending on how they balance and price them.

I've noticed another problem in this thread that I feel deserves another post,

Some of you are mentioning a defense of the purchase to win mechanic based upon some arbitrary invented principle that all weapons, utilities, and vehicle armaments within the planetside 2 game are equal in performance and ability and not advantageous to each other, in tl;dr, (weapons and stuff are SIDE-GRADES in ps2.)

This is absolutely not true in any way, shape, or form, and if you seriously believe that idea then I plead to you to go out to the v.r. or trial up some weapons and compare the statistical performance to really shed light on what stats are relevant to the weapons you are using.

A simple representative example of how performance upgrades are not side-grades within planetside 2:

http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper_Rifles

These weapons share the same characteristics except for the following statistics- The fact this is simply on the NC faction is not important, the same class of weapons with the exact same stats are available to the other factions as well.

NC Bolt Driver - Stock Gun
Damage: 750
Muzzle Velocity: 550 m/s
Short Reload Speed: 3.5
Long Reload Speed: 5
............................
comparative advantages

+reload speed, on a sniper rifle

NC Longshot - Purchased Gun
Damage: 800
Muzzle Velocity: 650 m/s
Short Reload Speed: 4
Long Reload Speed: 6
.............................
comparative advantages

+damage, on a sniper rifle
+muzzle velocity, on a snipe rifle

If you can honestly sit there and pretend something like the Longshot is a competitive sidegrade over the Bolt Driver, you must be out of your mind, it is selling purchasable power.

if you need more examples please compare carbines like the AF-17 Mercenary and the GD-7F, go take a look at rotaries versus standard nose guns on the ESF's, please take a look at the performance of the bulldog versus the fury grenade launcher systems, to that of the basilisk, kobalt and the like, if you are actually intelligently comparing them based on performance, ease of use and efficiency, they are clearly not side grades.

Nevermind the imbalance the exists between the faction specific weapons and abilities themselves, but when within your own faction there is a disadvantaged disparity, something is clearly wrong and needs to be fixed.

That's neat and stuff, but you can buy it with Certs anyway.

If the gamer community was truly bothered by this, they'd stop paying, but there's enough doing so that developers continue to implement pay-to-win marketing.

not really pay 2 win its more pay to have a chance to compete at all. you spend money you have more ability to win with unlocks more certs for class abilities, more options to bring to the fight... you play for free you better stick to one single thing and hope you don't run into the intentionally release OP crap meant to gain sales.

P2W crying, the new "omg cheats!"

Someone kills you it's one or the other.

Well, the situation seems to be as expected.

Free players will never stick around because of the obvious pay-to-win monetizing in PS2, and the wallet warriors will play until a better MMOFPS comes out.

Good luck in the console market, PS2.

https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428085257040509281

That character is my vs alt, I did not spend a cent on him, without any boosts he hit br 25 in 25 hours of play time. He has a a 2.4 k/d and .75 kills pre minute, using the default HA gear.

So please explain how I'm able to easily kill people that are br 80+ on that account without paying a cent if this game was pay to win.

This game isn't pay to win... yet. I say yet because we nearly got implants and avoided that debacle by the skin of our teeth.

Everything used in combat can be earned by certs.

Why most people complain about a perceived P2W structure is that it takes so long grinding certs. For those without the capital to grab all weapon systems as they appear have to make due with the tried and true and would have a hard time keeping up with the nerf cycle.

In other words, when a new weapon comes online it's generally unrefined and can be situationally "OP". Those that spot an "exploit" and have the cash or ready certs to spend do so before the inevitable nerf. This is the only hole in the NOT P2W argument.

The only other P2W item might be the resource boost... but even that's a debatable item.

Most people crying about P2W are those that just suck at FPS and planetside in particular, or, more rarely, those caught outside of the aforementioned nerf cycle.

This game is pay to win, but its justified by the fact that its free to play, now had this been a game that had actually took money to play at all then there would be a problem with the system set in place. Thankfully as it stands though this game is free so it really should just be accepted. Oh, and I know how long it takes to grind for certs and I must say, the time invested to gain 1000 certs for one weapon is ridiculously long to not call this game pay to win.

When I dropped my subscription last winter and my boost ran out I could still pull 150-200 certs/night, and I'm an average player. 1000 cert stuff is expensive, but 'ridiculously' so? I'd like to disagree.

Are you implying there are weapons better than my T1 cycler, more powerful than the weapon of the gods (and people starting the game, lucky sods)?!?

shh, shh, cycly. You're perfect. I know i don't use you a lot anymore, but i want all the AR auraxiums.

Here's a test, start a new character and jump into a fight with just stock BR1 equipment. I've done it several times just for kicks, and each time I get to BR5-10 within minutes/half hour.

Certs are a reward for playing the game and earning XP. You can buy EVERYTHING in the game and if you don't know how to use it well, you've bought diddly squat. A good player will wreck you no matter what equipment they have.

The only exception I can think of is A2G Missiles (Hornets and Pods) as those are wholesale upgrades that can be bought, and they're much more effective than the nose gun at A2G.

Free players?? This is a AAA level game. You should spend a little if you want to play. There is a few things you need to get started like a AA gun.

OP you fundamentally don't understand what REAL pay2win is. Basically it's when you can ONLY get upgrades via real money. Gunbound is a great example. There are upgrades to defense and offense that make you vastly better than those without the upgrades. Most of these upgrades can ONLY be purchased with real money.

You end up in games, as a new player, with vets who have paid for many upgrades and easily kick your butt 9/10 times. You get kiced from games by your own teamates if you don't have the right upgrades because you are a liability to their success. It's frustrating and not fun.

PS2 is not like that at all. Any player can unlock the same upgrades through in game experience. Yes it takes longer but that's not the point here. The model PS2 uses is "pay to get stuff faster that anyone else can get later".

I think what you are trying to say is that you can only buy boosts with real money and thus it's pay2win. Thereby earning more XP faster, unlocking things sooner, because you spent real money. I could get those same things without a boost or with SC directly which is even faster than a boost. Still not pay2win because EVERYONE can get the SAME upgrades given enough time.

VoidMagic's point about skill is relivant but not in the way he used it. An experience FPS player who is simply better aim, faster reaction time, and more situationaly aware than some Higby's first time in an FPS is PS2. That experienced player will kill people faster, die less, and essentially earn XP faster than the Higby.

I've spent a stupid amount of SC on this game and I still use several default weapons. The vast majority of my upgrades could ONLY be bought with certs; not SC. Suit slots, reload timers, med kits, anti infantry mines.... these all make me superior to a new player and yet you can not buy them with real money.

"The main argument I hear against Planetside 2 being a 'pay-to-win' game is that you can earn everything that would give you an advantage in combat." And that's why it's not pay-to-win by definition. Your argument is defeated in the very first line. "While this is true, does that mean that paying for Cert boosts, and weapons themselves are not pay-to-win aspects of the game?" That is very true indeed, and no that don't means those are pay-to-win aspects, that means those are pay-for-convenience aspects. Convenience like time.

"Sure, you can earn everything in Planetside 2." Indeed you can. Thus it's not pay-to-win. "Actually, I've played a character to around BR48 without any boosts at all, and I've unlocked around 5-10% of the game's content." And that is what you get for not paying anything to the developers who made the cake you are currently eating. They have to eat to and have all the right in the world to reward those who pay them with whatever they actually pay for. "Someone who would have spent the same amount of time playing but had an EXP boost the entire time would have obviously earned a much higher %." Obviously. If they had not, the boosts would not be working and no-one would bother paying to get them.

"This brings me to a conclusion: Planetside 2 is pay-to-win." Your conclusion is wrong. Allow me to define and exemplify Pay-To-Win for you.

Star Conflict is a twitch-based arena shooter A-team vs B-team set in, obviously, space. It is a free-to-play game like PS2 and has a progression system based on pilot-levels, different ships and experience. Pilot experience is one thing, and every ship you get, no matter what tier, has it's own experience you can build up by using it. By building the experience you improve the ships stats making it faster, harder, stronger. Ships are locked to tiers IIRC and once you hit a specific pilot level you can buy a new ships for in-game cash and get to the next tier and start leveling your ship(s) all over again in a higher tier.

Many tiers have some unique ships (and gear) that you can ONLY BUY FOR IRL CASH that come with pre-filled experience bars. Ergo, if you buy one of these, your ship come with max stats and power from the get go.

You are buying power and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get these special ships with in-game cash. You have to buy them with IRL cash.

Now: The definition on Pay-To-Win is the ability to purchase power that is unavailable outside of IRL cash usage. PlanetSide 2 avoids this by allowing anything in the game outside of cosmetics and time-savers to be available for certs.

Can you buy boosts to get experience and thus certs faster? Yes. can you buy boosts for resources so you can pull resource-costing assets more often? yes.

All of this is convenience - you have to chose what is more valuable to you, your time or your money. Time is more valuable? Spend money to get what you want faster then. Your money is more valuable to you? Then grind it up the normal FTP way. "In this case, pay-to-win is defined as being able to pay for an in-game advantage over your opponents." No it does not. You do not get to re-define what terms mean to support your agenda. "Even though you CAN earn everything in Planetside 2, the ability to pay for an advantage is still there." No it's not. You are presented with the ability to pay for a convenience that save you time, or cosmetics that don't affect your abilities in the game. A subscription and boosts saves you time, cosmetics are just that, cosmetics. Besides that all weapons and gear can be purchased with certs. *YOU* decide how long you want it to take to earn the certs needed to buy whatever it is you want.

"If you spend the same amount of time playing with an EXP boost where I didn't, you would have unlocked a higher % of the game's content," And if you spend 3 hours every day playing PS2 while I play an average of 1 hour every other night, you would hit BR100 when I'm still around BR50. I'm BR86 today, there are players in my outfit that joined this game after me who are BR100 at this point. I have had a subscription almost since launch, and my K/D averages 1.6-1.8. I don't care terribly much because I play for the objective play, but my twitch-skills and game-flow suffer due to lack of persistent practice. FTP players lower ranked than me who play more than me will dominate me in clear player-skill matches far as reactions and 1vs1 forte goes. What huge benefits do I get from my sub again? "therefore giving you an advantage in at least most aspects of the game." Like what, having more weapons and gear that I have less practice using, or more grenades and consumables that I hardly ever use because I don't play that much? Gear will only get you that far, and you can't pay for player skill. "In the same case for weapons, I would spend 500-1000 Certs on a weapon whereas one could just buy the weapon and spend those certs upgrading it." Yes, and I make a point out of paying for all the guns I want with station-cast so that all my toons have those guns, and I can use my favorite guns (this chaingun is not default gear, btw) on other toons on other servers, playing with my US friends when I wish.

This is a convenience. That I paid for. Deal with it.

"What do you tell yourself to justify paying for weapons/EXP boosts?" Justify? JUSTIFY!? WTF do you think paying for a game is, a freaking crime? I don't have to justify ANYTHING to you, or anyone else, you value-less little carpet-stain. I have paid for conveniences freely available from a provider of an entertainment medium that I enjoy, but don't have terribly much time for, and I will keep doing that because I can and it's worth it to me.

Just because you don't want to spend a dime on the developers of a game you are clearly playing for over 40 levels worth of non-boosted experience, don't mean anyone that does are paying to win, you self-righteous tool. You do not get to have your damn cake and eat it too. PlanetSide 2 is demonstratively not pay-to-win, it is indeed a free-to-play MMO-FPS game where you can pay for conveniences, bling, and to save time.

Time that to me is limited, far more valuable than the money I've spent so far for mere conveniences. I am still on the exact same level playing-field as everyone else, and so are you. Your self-righteous complaining is not doing yourself any favors.

It is definitely "Pay-to-Win" in some areas. Every Weapon is worth 1,000 certs and if you're not going to pay for that you're going to have to wait an unreasonably looong time.
1,000 certs for a handgun that does twice the damage of my standard-issue pistol - it's ridiculous. I can barely earn any certs despite leveling up often, it's unfair and unbalanced for non-paying players who start off with little experience/skill/knowledge.
You'll find yourself getting killed by over players who are over level 100 with insanely powerful guns and load-outs.
If they (PS2 Developers) lowered some weapon prices depending on quality it would be wonderful but honestly that's not going to happen, and I don't expect them to.
Despite the excessive inconveniences imposed upon non-payers the game is a masterpiece, runs smooth, with little bugs or lag and is enjoyable from time-to-time, I just wish that they would make it more fun and less of a grind. More like Free-To-Pay or either Free-To-Play 15 hours to get a single weapon. I'll play those 15 hours though.

This thread already have been necro'd in june almost a year after it's original date (and reading the answers, apparently nobody noticed) and it's now necro'd again 3 months after ? Seriously, why are you people doing this ? Especially on such a toxic topic.

Anyway, to contribute on the topic I'll just quote this :

That's wrong. Every single class of the game has access to 250 certs weapons that are really good. Look at the VS Serpent carbine for instance. It's 250 certs against the 1000 certs VX6-7 and perform like true sidegrades. Many people, if it wasn't for auraxium hunting, would even keep the standard weapon.

I'm from those who truly believes PS2 is not P2W, even if some elements might be close to it. Skill is still the main thing. A noob spending 100 bucks in the game still won't be able to kill a skilled BR1.

If I that BR100 gave you his account and used a BR1 no money spent account he'd still slap you silly. in game, of course.