Thoughts on Lib "Counters"

Is the Lib a beast? Yes.
Is it the most dangerous vehicle in the game? I think it is.
Is it OP? Don't know. I'd need to see the stats from the average Lib. Like ESFs, the better the crew, the more dangerous the Lib gets... to the point where the best crews make the Lib arguably broken.

I'd like to throw some thoughts out on the "counters" to the Lib and why people may have problems. Actually, most of the things on this list aren't counters and I'll explain why I think that in a second.

ESFs, lightnings, tanks, bursters, lock-ons, and towers have all, at one point, been called counters (I'm gonna leave out other Libs right now). But here are the problems with these counters (going from least to best counter... IMO):

Tanks: They are easy to avoid with height and, since they are usually engaged with ground, if they spot the Lib, it can just pull back for a second and let them re-engage ground before making a pass. Rarely do you have an MBT sitting in AA mode. IMO, if a Lib get nailed by a MBT, good for the MBT.

Lockons: The dedicated GtA launchers pack a punch. Overall, not scary unless in numbers. Like other things on this list, because infantry usually focus on ground, most lock ons won't come until we have made out attack and are already on our way out (which usually means they aren't too much of a threat). In that same vein, dedicated AtG infantry force us to keep our distance. However, flying low and using terrain as cover allows a Lib to sneak up on a target before lock ons can be a real threat.

Bursters: A single dual burster can be a pain... but only if they spot the Lib on approach. If we can get the tank buster on target by the time the burster sees and starts shooting, we'll be able to get out with little to no damage. As with tanks and lock ons, if they see us early, we just do a circle and come back when they aren't looking. The other option is to break LoS via terrain on our approach so that they can't do much even if they know we're coming. Overall, pretty easy to avoid unless the MAX has a good vantage point.

Towers: Pretty much same as bursters. Very good at keeping a Lib at bay but we all know how long a shooting tower stays up in an active fight. The buff so the TB can't 1 clip it was a good change.

Lightnings: Not to be messed around with. Skyguards are rough and always looking for air so we always keep our distance. That being said, with the sheer amount of air, it's only a matter of time until they focus their attention elsewhere. If we enter an area with a skyguard, it's our #1 target and we'll wait until we have a chance to make a run. With a good TB, they pop pretty quickly. Again, patience and stealthy approaches can nullify a SG pretty easily. Now... multiple skyguards... that's a different story.

IMO, the above examples are not counters... they are deterrents. The only true counters are ESFs and other Libs. Libs can easily avoid anything I listed above if they choose and smart crews can "counter the deterrent" with a little bit of patience and skill. The "counters" listed above almost never take down a Lib unless the Lib makes a mistake. Thus, they can keep a Lib out of an area for a time... but good crews will eventually find a way in.

ESF: The problem:
1.) ESFs, like Libs, are opportunists. I can't tell you how many ESFs stare at the ground to get ground kills and completely miss us making runs on their friendly vehicles. I'd honestly say that 1/2+ ESFs are completely in their own world and couldn't care less about the Lib that's mauling their friends. Sure, when they notice us they'll do a 1/2 hearted attempt to scare us out... but they rarely really engage to kill.
2.) An ESF's ttk on a full health Lib is pretty high. Given enough time, most good pilots will put us down. However (and this is a big however), they need time to get the job done. It's not like we'll stay and fight. The long TTK let's us pull back to friendlies, allow friendlies to kill the ESF before they get us, or just plain run (we'll be shooting back as we run). It's not hard forcing an ESF to gamble on chasing us into friendly territory while taking rounds from a dalton/shredder and risking running into another ESF. Most good pilots don't want to take that chance.
3.) We almost never kill an ESF (we run a dalton) unless they do something stupid. But again, returning fire forces the ESF into defensive maneuvers which lowers its accuracy and increases the TTK... allowing for more chances of bad things to happen to the ESF.

The jist of it: Libs are a pain in the *** to kill because we dictate almost every engagement and can avoid almost every counter in the game. In fact, given enough time, Libs can counter most of their supposed counters. Solid lib crews know our speed, our damage output and TTK on targets, how much damage we are likely to take in an area, the likelihood of enemies spotting us on our approach and what they can hit us with on our egress, our entrance and exit strategy, and if we have friendly support (aka bait/ESF cover). If we make good decisions, we are very tough to kill. Most of our deaths come from making a good run and coming out with 1/3 or less health and getting jumped by an ESF for a quick kill... but that's not an effective way to stop a Lib. I think my gunner and I have made an art of this but most crews do this to varying levels of degree. The armor, 2 sets of eyes, speed, decent maneuverability, weapons, and ability to make offensive and defensive decisions simultaneously make the Lib very difficult to kill. The only hard counter is gonna have to earn it's pay to get a good Lib.

TL;DR Libs, like ESFs, can be judicious about when and where they engage. Their speed and armor means that if they spot their counters early enough, they are extremely capable of defending themselves and actually countering the counter. They are the only vehicle that requires teamwork and thus always able to defend and attack at the same time.

One final thought:
Honestly... I wonder if that is what sets them apart from all other vehicles... the ability have the main person drive (and be the awareness/defense) and the other use the heavy weapon: 1 person dedicated to offense and 1 dedicated to keeping the vehicle (and team) alive. How much more effective would other vehicles be if that's how they made it? Can you imagine a skyguard with a dedicated driver watching out for incoming threats while the gunner does his/her thing... or any other vehicle for that matter (PS1 anybody?). Sure, attacking is good but staying alive is better. That's what makes the best vehicle drivers the best: Being able to balance the attack and survival aspects.

Is the Lib such a beast because the roles necessary to stay alive and be effective (awareness, defense, maneuvering, attack) are better shared between driver and gunner than in other vehicles?

as someone who has just tried to take down some libs with an ESF: These things are Way to hard to kill. 2 A2A rockets and 2 clips from my nosegun and i didn't even see smoke. granted they used fire suppression but still. Way to hard to kill.

I feel like my lib always insta-dies because PREY, an air outfit on waterson, always seems to have 1 guy to distract me and 2 to jump me with vorteks and then ending up killing me before I can react turn or before my gunner can attempt to fire a shot at them.

Most ESFs don't know how to take down libs or fight a2a so we ground farm.
If I see air I after burn away,
But I kill infantry and armor.
Also usually libs just run away back to their territory and if you follow you're going to get shot down by ESFs or G2A.

Ground has a hard time destroying libs because libs can just turn around and escape. Then turn back behind you, TB you and then send a dalton up your ***.

I skimmed the rest, but this part, yes. I love the Lib for the same reason I love the Harasser. It takes (at least) two to tango. I've been playing a Ranger Harasser w/ Burster MAX in the back, lately. All the driver has to worry about is avoiding armor and not rolling the buggy. The gunner scans the air for threats, or the ground for mines between zones. The MAX watches the six, and tries not to puke.

My point is this: driver/gunner separation is a good thing. With the current xp sharing, it is not as lucrative to solo vehicles anymore, unless you drive Prowlers, lol. I wish there were more vehicles like this, from the context of cooperation, not the varying levels of farming each one has seen over the last months.

Try to pull an anti air sunderer with dual walkers, sure it requires more awareness and you'll need to avoid direct combat with ground but if you're 3 ( 2gunner + 1 engineer repairing) you'll be surprised by the actual dps of the twins walkers in mid range. In addition you can keep them away from your allies with the long range of these weapons.
However it's not an easy task and i think it's necessary to have good communication.

The TB is still a threat but with blocus + Fire Supression you can tank some damages, the key is to spot them before they spot you ( like any other lib counters cited above ).

I actually agree with a lot of this. What a lot of people fail to realize who have never flown Liberators is the sheer amount of processing of information you have to be doing at all times to keep yourself alive. When I'm flying I know where every fight on the map is, I know where that fight is likely to go next, I have an estimation of how much AA is at each fight, I know my attack routes and I know my routes for retreating. Part of that is because if I have good gunners I can let my close range awareness drift a bit and trust them to keep an eye out for threats. And, part of that is simply because you have to do that to stay alive and have semi-consistent runs. Granted, at a high level anyone who is great at infantry or armor does something similar to that. But, it's not really required when you're on the ground or even in an ESF.

I have a problem gunning for newer pilots for the reason that I get annoyed when they're making silly mistakes like attacking the skyguard head on. Or tanking a couple of lockons so I can get one more kill on an irrelevant infantry guy.

I also agree on your analysis. In the right hands, against low to mid skill players who don't really understand how to or don't have the coordination to bring them down. Liberators are borderline OP and maybe over that line. Against coordinated players or people who know how to counter them they're in a pretty good place.

You say it from my mind!

Piloting a Liberator is based on experience.. That is why new Pilots will have problems flying them.. Not because the Weapons are weak or something like that, but because everywhere is something that can damage or kill you, so you need to know where to go, where not to go, how to approach, how to react when something interrupts you, how to retreat and how to fly the liberator angles to let you fire the tankbuster + belly gun for finishing a tank off which you choosed right before your attack.
That is all done in seconds by experienced pilots and really required to stay alive.

And if the liberator crew has learned so much that they can do it you still die every second time, because something or someone will happen everytime.
Now that they have the experience, they should be rewarded for that, not punished by forumside saying libs are OP, destroy everything and there are no counters.
And as everyone who is at least a bit experienced with flying ESF & Liberator know that both die so fast by simple mistakes. And even if you do no mistakes, it is still a mistake to fly into enemy territory, because you will still die, the matter is only "when".

And as I said on other threads:
ESF can kill liberator easily, if they are on equal or higher skill level.
That means, that no newbie "should" be able to kill a liberator crew who have mastered everything I wrote before + more.
That is just wrong.. really.. Same as Coyotes. They let new pilots kill experienced, which is simply wrong.. Why should I learn to play the game when I can just choose the right weapon and kill everyone, no matter how good he is?
Where is the balance there?

If you want to kill a Liberator, learn to do it (In fact you don't even need to do that, because of nobrainer lockons and FLAK).

I have harder times killing stupid tanks sitting next to the spawnroom camping with C4 LA's than killing Libs with an ESF.

Its the same in any ESF that you actually try to use in large fights in an A2G capacity. Only the ESF is MUCH more fragile, and doesn't have the luxury of tanking damage... you have to do what you get very quickly, and get the hell out of dodge.

That's what makes Libs OP, cause they can both soak up a good amount of damage from the ground while having strong ability to deal out damage. I Skyguard and AA MAX quite a bit, Libs are a pain, compared to ESFs, because if they're smart most will escape and come back. Libs that fly in plain sight are easier targets, but when you get ones that actually bother using terrain, even the Skyguard needs to be VERY fearful of the Lib.

Libs also have weapons that fall into the performing too well in all areas - cause they do AA, AI and AV all in one. Its a wonder SOE lets the Dalton and AP30 live on in its current form, but enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

I actually have an easier time getting quick kills in large fights with an ESF. I've found I can get in and out before anyone even notices me. I will say that lockons are much more deadly against ESF's than libs though.

The Dalton got its AI needed pretty hard. It regularly takes 3 shots to take down one person. The Shredder is probably too good right now though. Especially with the Dalton Nerf.

It doesn't follow the standard for AP... tanks with AP, you've really got no chance for AI unless you direct hit. With its 9m radius and 3-shotting infantry is still plenty doable if the guy can't run to cover quickly enough. I've had that done to me. I don't see why the Dalton should get special treatment, especially when tank AP got nerfed vs. Libs and has really almost no blast radius vs. infantry?

As for the Shredder - let's compare it to its ground based variant - really, the Basilisk. Its ok having a multi purpose weapon, but it shouldn't be so good vs. all them things. Just think how much better the Shredder is compared to a Basilisk.

The Lib has a 3rd weapon system, it should be made to count, if you want AI while running a Dalton, then you can plug in a Bulldog. If you want AA, then use Hyena or the Walker. The belly guns shouldn't be a one size fits all deal.

The Lib is just too versatile currently, with too much alpha.

I really wouldn't mind how Liberators are in their current state if they were more vulnerable to standard AV equipment. Tank shells and dumb fires in particular, but also MAX AV weapons, phalanx AV turrets and AV secondaries.

If you're getting close enough to where the above are hitting you then you deserve to take a huge amount of damage very quickly. Especially considering the fact that all of those can easily be avoided by flying correctly, minus the occasional skillshot.

Nothing is more frustrating than nailing Liberators with tank shells and dumb fires and them shrugging it off like it is nothing. Compare this to an ESF. If the ESF flies correctly, there's nothing a HA with a dumbfire or a tank using the main cannon can do to stop them. If the ESF flies poorly and the HA/tank is extremely skilled (or lucky) then the ESF takes a massive amount of damage very quickly. This makes sense to me.

I'm really sick and tired of Liberators hovering at ground level, face tanking everything, then killing you and flying away only to come back again after they repair.

It doesn't even matter the skill gap in these cases. Even a dedicated tank crew with hundreds of hours of experience along with a maxed out MBT stands almost no chance against even amateur and sub-average Liberator crews. At least before we had a CHANCE at taking you down before you tankbusted and pulled up. Now it is more of "Liberator incoming. Well, at least we lasted two minutes."

TL;DR Liberators have every advantage they could ever ask for over most ground targets. I don't see why they need to be extremely resilient against those targets when they forgo those advantages and put themselves into situations where those being farmed have a few moments to fight back. Liberator pilots will not like this for the same reason that tankers don't like being killed by C4 and ESFs don't like being daltoned.

I've actually stated multiple times that I agree that SOE went overboard on the AP resistance buff for Liberators and many Liberator pilots feel the same way.

My perfect balance, I would rather let tanks defend themselves a bit better against Libs/ESF's that are actually attacking them, and not be so good at sniping them from range.

There's a few big things that change how the Dalton functions vs an AP tank.
1: It's basically impossible to get a direct hit with a dalton. You're shooting down at people which means you have a MUCH smaller hitbox to land your shot on and you're also constantly moving and typically further away than you would be in an AP tank.
2: I would actually be fine with Dalton getting AP splash if you gave it another 25m/s and 200 direct damage so it was a vanguard AP clone.

You don't 3 shot infantry at 9m. I don't know the exact numbers but 3 shotting is with landing all three shots pretty close. If the infantry has flak armor you can splash them all day long and they'll just shrug it off. Either way, the Dalton is pretty bad against infantry now. I usually just run a bulldog on tail and use it to kill infantry if I feel like it.

The shredder is probably too good and I agree with you on that. However, the default gun SHOULD be a one size fits all weapon. That's default guns are. MBT HEAT, Basilisk, Viper, they're all competent at just about everything but not great at anything. The problem is that the Shredder is also great at everything lol.

They've basically already balanced the Dalton and the Zepher pretty well. The biggest problem right now is the massive resistance that comp armor gives you to daltons and the flat decrease in dalton damage to Liberators. Shredder Composite armor Liberators just wreck Dalton Libs unless you get in their face and Tankbust and this is getting into a whole different subject now. But,

Tl;Dr I agree with you in principle. The dalton used to be a bit too good against infantry, that's been toned down a significant amount. Maybe you don't notice it on the ground but you sure as heck notice it when you're trying to kill infantry with it. That was a good change, I'm okay with it. Shredder needs some nerfs or tweaks coming its way to push it more towards one role or make it not as good overall.

Thank you sir - I appreciate your response, its really quite refreshing to see a well thought out and reasonable response.

In any case, the game has seen so many nerfs, we've probably gone too far on the side of "balance" with various things, so hopefully SOE makes some smaller tweaks if they change anything.

As an infantryman, libs aren't that bad. I'm aware enough that Im usually not caught out of position and understand the timing between shots enough to get from cover to cover. The only part that irks me is how dumbfires it takes to bring one down (cuz screw lockons).

However...

As a Sundy driver, **** libs. Even AP kitted enemy tanks don't kill me as fast or as easily as libs do. I will even dodge their initial tankbuster runs completely while having dual walkers firing at the bastard and still end up getting popped with blockade armor and fire suppression.

That **** libs part, didn't really mean it. I understand that libs are a pretty hard counter to sunderers and that in all situations I'm going to be at a disadvantage, such is the way of combined arms. But what irks me a little is that the libs themselves don't have the that hard type of counter while they act as a hard counter for not only (IMO) the most important vehicle in the game -sunderers- but most ground vehicles. The skyguard and ESF don't really act as hard counters because in a vehicle vs vehicle scenario, the Liberator can easily dispatch both. If you go for the 3 person vs 3 person argument (so 3 skyguards or 3 esfs vs one liberator) then your essentially throwing 900 vehicle resources or 750 air resources to kill a single 350 air resource vehicle.

So all in all, I think Libs don't need any explicit nerfs. What I believe they do need is an implicit nerf, by adding a weapon or system that is good at hunting liberators. It would probably be ground based and have a Low ROF, so where the skyguard would be aerial suppression, this weapon would be a more direct skill shot weapon.

You could argue that lock-ons are a direct counter because your using a resource free weapon en masse. While this is true most of the times I've seen people use lock-ons in groups the liberator can just **** before it's destroyed. Lock-ons seem ineffective at killing libs.

Anyway, attempting to be constructive here so productive counterarguments to why my logic is flawed are welcome.

Tanks.

Composite armor.

I never said it works.

The Shredder hasn't been subject to any changes. Do you feel now that the Dalton got (over)nerfed that its counterpart should be subject to the same?

Why did they change tank resists.... 2 shots should kill anything but a Composite lib, 3 shots should kill Composite.