Fix the damage the Shredder does to MAX units

The Shredder really needs a COF increase, projectile speed decrease, and to totally lose its AOE.

The Dalton needs an AOE decrease to 2m outer radius, and when belly flopping the drop should become uncontrollable.

Until these two weapons are dealt with, the Lib will continue to be the singular one platform vs. all everything out there. Its a wonder the Viper is seeing such a hard nerf yet the 2 Lib weapons that simply perform too well vs. everything aren't being touched.

That's exactly what it is.



I made an alt on Connery VS and the first thing I did was hop in a random pub's liberator at the Indar warpgate. He was only like BR 35 or so but I told him that if we ever got down to 50% health to land for repairs.

Because of that simple direction I gave him, we farmed like mad and he wasn't even good at positioning or flying. The only problem is running out of ammo.

While your personal anecdotes are certainly fascinating and captivating, they mean absolutely nothing that can be taken seriously.

Give statistics and numbers, not your say-so, and not one number, but the average of hundreds or thousands.

I'll wait.

Not just the shredder, the TR Banshee doe's the same insta gib to max's too.

Bursters are a deterrence at range, and deadly up close. The reason they don't do a ton of damage is because you can sustain damage on them for a very long time. They lack the firepower of a skyguard or a turret, but they have the benefit of mobility and flexibility.

A skyguard is going to have a much harder time avoiding a lib than a max will. However, any decent skyguard will have already lit up the lib long before it got in range to use the shredder, and the lib is going to take heavy damage if he commits to the attack. Anything else will kill it at that point.

AA stacks extremely well. One burster is a deterrent (or killer if the pilot is stupid). Two can kill things if they lure them in before firing. Three sources of flak basically establishes a no-fly zone against everything up to a literal air zerg. I'm saying this as somebody who loves playing the max, and my most common loadout on it is the bursters. I have no problem dealing with liberators unless the base is being zerged, in which case the issue isn't the liberator, it's the zerg.

This. Maxes right next to each other are easy targets, you can take them both out together. If you spread out, they can only engage one, and then you play peek-a-boo with the lib. If he's focusing on you, duck for cover while your friend opens up on him, and vice versa. And yes, deterrence does more than you think. If a lib is spending more time running away, repairing, and then flying back then he actually does above the base, you've drastically reduced his effectiveness.

Another point for shredder libs, they will usually be in much closer than other libs since they need accurate sustained fire for the shredder to be effective. In addition to coming in close, the pilot is going to stay as smooth as possible as not to bump the gunner's aim around. This makes them a fairly easy target for dumbfires. They can dodge some, but they can't dodge them all. And then of course there's the good ol' lock-ons if all else fails, although those do less damage than the dumbfires.

So you proved that libs can farm infantry effectively. Nobody is disputing that. If my crew happens upon a base with no AA, we're going to clean house, and we're going to stay there until we're chased out by something. All you've proven is that the A2G gunship is good at A2G. A single burster is enough to prevent a lib from farming.

I try to avoid an 'us & them' mentality, but my dealings with full-time pilots seems to make me think most of them really are oblivious to just how well Libs farm infantry in mid-sized fights and below. When I do pull a mossy to counter them with A2A weapons, I routinely get hate tells. HATE tells for pulling something to specifically counter them. And not just a few. I get them from most full time lib farmers. Sorry to interrupt your farming!

So in the spirit of this thread, I'll ask: How long does the Lib take to shred the AA max? Now if the Lib sits still for 2 minutes, how long does it take a dual-burster max to finally melt the Lib?

I'm fairly certain that the AH rips maxes as well. I think I 3-shot one at one point. But I don't make a point of trying to get close enough to Burster Maxes to test this well enough.

Never been a big fan of <insert weapon name here> should do <A-B-C> to <X-Y-Z>. Pretty sure the game isn't balanced by the name of the weapons.

I get hate tells for pulling A2A on my ESF as well when enemy air is dominating the sky. Tomcats are pretty much a soft counter to Libs right now because you can sit back far enough from them to the point that it is extremely difficult for even a good Dalton gunner to land a shot on you. At that distance, you can very easily see the Dalton rounds coming at you and can easily avoid them.

Dunno why people get so angry when a counter is pulled against them. I usually respond with a smiley face like this:

Air Hammer is 7 shots or 3 to kill infantry.

Whenever ESF's use AA missiles against me, I send a /tell saying how much the guy disappointed me as a person.

It really gets to them, and they usually come back and say "I'm sorry but everyone else was using them!" lol

AA can go from a detterence to a threat as soon as the skill curve for AA is the same as the skil curve for flying an ESF. I'd be fine knowing that if someone killed me with AA, they had spent just as much, slightly less, or even more time learning to AA as I've spent learning to fly. In the other hand, with the way AA is right now, if it was made a serious threat instead of a detterence, no one would fly because two or three noobs with single burster arms could destroy and aircraft that came close to the base.

The problem with how AA is now is that there's almost no shooter skill involved- the weapon does most of the work for them, so what decides if a pilot gets killed is mainly their own skill, and the position of the AA shooting. I agree-libs, and esfs and galaxies to an extent, don't really have a sufficiently effective ground based counter, but buffing the AA options available now isn't the anwer. Some new form of skill basedAA needs to be introduced instead.

Also, what's this I hear about Shredder having a blast radius? I've checked the wikia and haven't found anything corraborating that.

I'm not arguing that libs can farm fights lacking AA incredibly well. And it sounds like you've encountered some grumpy pilots. I know a lot of pilots have an elitist attitude (look at any one of the AA dalton threads).

A lib, which is a three-man flying whale of a vehicle, using the shredder which requires close range and steady, consistent aim to use effectively, will kill a MAX faster than a MAX will kill the liberator using long-range flak. The max has the luxury of using cover, the lib, for the most part, does not. The lib is exposed to attack from 360 degrees, so it's rarely just the one max it's worrying about.

Basically, you're going to have a hard time killing a liberator by yourself on a MAX. That's fair since the MAX is a single-person infantry suit going up against a 3 man vehicle that is at risk from attack from any multitude of any sources. Sure, you might not be able to kill the liberator, but if you weaken him and an ESF shows up, he's pretty much toast.

The most important thing you do if you're by yourself is you prevent the lib from sitting there and farming the base. If he's taking fire, he can't just sit there.

If you get lucky, you'll kill him if he's being stupid, or if anything else in the base hits him. When I'm in a lib, one of the most dangerous ground threats to me is heavies. They can pop out from all over the base with a rocket and then duck back into cover. If you have multiple dumbfires, there's a good chance the lib will get hit. Two dumbfires gets the lib to pretty low heatlh, and the burster max may be able to finish it off before it can escape depending on the terrain.

Alright, give heavies a weapon to go in their rocket launcher slot that is like the Walker. Damages the hell out of air, but doesn't have any flak effect and is pinpoint accurate so your aim actually matters. I'd be up for that.

I'd have to agree. Point+click does take less skill that flying, but on the other hand infantry have a lot of other disadvantages to balance it out, and since it's presumably a specialized weapon it makes sense that it has some advantage over air.

Personally though, I'd rather see a modified AI engineer turret with a walker and upwards shield, that protects the engineer some from skyborne attacks, but not from other infantry or tanks.

Grrrrr, it's triple A not AA AA is so yesterday.............

[X] killed me
[X] must be changed


<------ Horrible pilot, lucky to have friend who is a kickass pilot, i get to gun his lib now and then.
When solo piloting, i rather deal with skyguard than a non spawnroom-based entrenched burster max any day of the week.

You clearly were in the open. Everything dies when in the open. Everything.

You must've missed my RamCat loadout of Airhammer/Tomcats/Racer 3 back before the Liberator pilots got Tomcats castrated so that they didn't have to stoop to running flares Just not the same with Coyotes

Wait until they come out with Engy AA Turrets

This would pretty much fix everything. Engineer deployable walkers with an upward facing shield would be great