A New Look @ Air-Ground Game

And i love this argument, comparing a pure combat vehicle with a transporter.


If we are talking pure vehicle balance, then i think resources and crew should count.

The ESF-Lib balance should be like the lightning-MBT balance.

Lightnings and MBT don't fill different roles, but ESFs and Liberators do.

Like it or not, crewing and resource cost can't be taken into account because it's totally irrelevant to performance. Even if we're considering them, most Libs even now are 2/3 and air resources are 100% useless for any other purpose than pulling an MPAC. Even mechanized is more valuable, as if I pull a Vanguard I better hope my squad doesn't need a sundy anytime soon. Infantry resources, of course, are even more valuable than both combined, and yet Bursters remain effectively the worst option.

ESFs should be the sharks of the sky, and Liberators the bomb-sh*tting seals. I don't know why air should be some magical exception to the expectation of every other person and vehicle in this game that you can't pull a "great at everything!" loadout but yes ESFs should have their way with you and yes that's how it should be. Don't like it? Don't fly where enemy ESFs are or run with something that kills ESFs

The real problem is that libs are both the best air to ground and air to air vehicle currently, and that has become a problem mainly in my opinion as the devs have nerfed the ESF's ability to maneuver (IE nerfing after burner fuel so you use more per 'burst'). This puts all esf that are not running AB fuel tanks at an extreme disadvantage when fighting libs, and puts even esf with fuel tanks in not that much better of a spot.

Also, the air game has devolved into who sees who first and who can get the first few shots on the other first. A2A has become incredibly boring because how the devs listened to all the whiners and nerfed skill, and once the majority of 'ace pilots' left, you now have a huge power void that the players who these nerfes intended to help can never fill.

I use to be able to circle strafe libs and easily kill them, while dodging their one hit kill daltons. Now you can hardly strafe them as you will run out of AB fuel so fast that you become a sitting duck. This is the real problem in my opinion, but I am just a crusty old ex-ace pilot.

It's more than that. It's not just that it's the best air unit. It's the most survivable, hardest to kill vehicle on the battlefield period, as well as the most mobile other than ESFs. And it will one-shot or two shot any other unit in the game except another Liberator, which it will take a couple more shots to destroy. And it has the ability to do damage to other units from a position beyond render range or above gun elevation range, where, due to wonky game mechanics, it cannot be hit by its target, or by other things shooting back at it.

That's just flat out unbalanced on land or air, and the fact that it flies only magnifies the extent to which it is unbalanced vs. any other unit on the field.

Huh?

Last night, the underpopulated TR (28% at login, NC 40%) on Connery were facing off at some base on Amerish. TR defending. NC had an A S S Load of air; Libs up the wazoo and Reavers like gnats on a summer night. So I pull a Vanguard, and so did a few others. Guess what. Inside of 10 minutes the air was clear, I had shot down numerous NC libs and Reavers and you could see Sun and Sky again. And this was when NC had the numbers. Am I impressed with NC on Connery? No, because the only way they can take stuff is with numbers and they generally suck, but my point is the same; air was crawling with NC scum and a few Vanguards/Strikers/Bursters cleared it up in short order. I am actually liking the recent upgrade to air. Why? Because it was an upgrade and SoE decided not to nerf something for once (if this is correct; I didn't read all the patch notes).

Someone just posted they're now nerfing the Viper on the Lightning. And for me, this is the final straw. I am so ****ing tired of SoE nerfing weapons.

Yes, but if we had even slightly un-nerffed ESF, atleast in the A2A realm, then it would even out fairly well.

You should want to send ESF at libs when you see them, not sending libs at libs because ESF can hardly take them out anymore without overwhelming numbers.

I really think the main problem is that the devs have pushed ESF to a numbers game instead of a skill game like it use to be.

Not enough by a mile.

First, broken mechanic is broken. No unit in the game should be able to shoot at another unit while being invisible, unspottable, and unhittable to what it is shooting. All weapons have an effective range, and some are more effective than others at longer ranges. But there never should be a unit that can shoot while remaining completely invisible to what it is shooting at. The render distance wonkiness, AA gun elevation limits, and stupid **** like libs shooting through shields because client side hit detection needs to end. This is not just a Liberator problem; it applies equally to other cheese units like the AV Mana turret. When both ends of every engagement can engage each other, then we can talk about stats, effective range, counters, and etc.

Second, it can be the best at one thing, or it can have two mutually exclusive setups that are the best at two different things. But what it cannot have is one setup that is the best at all things, if it is ever going to come into some semblance of balance with other units in the game. Firepower, Toughness, and Mobility. Pick any two. You can't have the best of all three in one unit.

Third, it's the only unit in the game that can engage with three effective, separately controlled weapons at once. It needs a cost to match. Based on the cost of the 2/2 vehicles, the Lib should cost no less than 750 air resources to pull.

Maybe you should stop team killing instead of pretending you have knowledge of this game.

It is pretty apparent the Lib is OP and no... You cant clean the skys with rockets or bursters. You need your own air to clean it.

People come up with alternatives because trying to jump in naked aircraft and go toe-to-toe with more experienced players in over 9000 certed aircraft ends in a brick wall. To this complaint, the response is always, "L2 play nubcake." So people learn to play, even if ace-flying and AA isn't what they want to do with their time/certs.

what are you smoking? Last I checked, libs render farther than land vehicles do and can only hit land vehicles once they are in render range (stuff that does not render to the gunner can not be hurt).

Yes libs can shoot through the shields, so can every other unit that has a long range weapon that are farther than the shields' render (IIRC tanks can do this, but they are often not far enough away when shelling due to terrain).

AV mana turrets no longer truly do this because they render at vehicle range, but they are to small of targets to engage (and do need to have a distance limit on their projectiles).

When did I say something needs to be the best at two different things? you are just pulling nonsense out of your bum and only want AA buffed it seems... I said I want ESF to get their maneuverability back, that does not make them best at two different things, that makes them better air to air fighter craft and more fun to do it to boot! Please get a seance of how things really work before spouting off nonsense.

To your original point Hosp, I would have to say that is because SOE keeps doing things a bit wrong IMO. Instead of raising the skill floor, they keep trying to lower the skill ceiling.

What SOE should do is not nerf the ESF in their capibilites (save the OP parts, which where nerfed long ago), but give new players a better way to get in the air. the 15m timer is one of the biggest culprates as it takes way to many certs to bring down. The fact that there is a timer cert at all is really bad for this game as it just punishes new players while experianced players who have gotten good enough to last at least 15 mins now have a timer that is 1 /3 of a new players timer. They also should make the secondaries for air cheaper, as 1k certs is crazy for these noob weapons. The A2Am and Cyoties are made to help newer players who lack aim and flight ability with large burst damage, however its generaly only people who have been playing quite a while are the ones who can afford them, and certing ontop of that!

SOE needs to treat the upgrades as real side grades instead of just upgrades, so the new players can stand a chance instead of continuously nerfing good players so the 'new players' can keep up, when in reality, no matter how much you nerf good players, they will still **** on new players.... at least until the good players get board of the game because of all the nerfs (aka what happened to airside and why you don't see 'aces' to much anymore). There are defiantly ways of helping new players while not harming good players, and new players should not expect to be amazing when they get in a vehicle, be it ground or air, but the timer restriction is way to long for all vehicles without heavy cert investments, that and the lack of a proper tutorial on how to use these 'advanced' weapons and vehicles.

You should probably stop 4th empire TKing NC. Could lead to a ban. Just saying...

I 100% agree. Especially about making the entry of all aircraft more accessible. But that's a topic for another thread.

My big deal is, we're in Airside 2. There're so much A2G that what G2A exists doesn't work, and the incentives/ability for A2A is somewhere between balanced and nil, depending on the scenario. I want my air superiority fighter to be superior at A2A. I want my bomber/gunship to be able to soak up damage and dish it out. I want my G2A to scare off farther air and shred closer air. But that's not how it's working and here we are with dozens of threads about the topic. Unlike most however, I gave some solutions.

TKing? WTF are you talking about. How is killing NC air as TR Team Killing?!

And I just depicted for you an event last night telling you how TR turned around the NC air onslaught. Instead you want to make up my mind for me by suggesting what happened last night can only be done by "need your own air to clean it"?

Stunned at your lack of thought!

How the **** did you come to the conclusion I TK'd anyone? I play TR. Period.

Perhaps you don't only play TR. That's ok, I won't tell anyone. We all have secret characters too.

And perhaps you cross dress on the weekends and change your name to Galaxia. Although this is an example of what's your business and yours alone, it's also (likely anyway) not true.

I kill NC alright. I love it, in fact. Especially when [666] lie dead beneath my boots. But I don't play alts and I don't TK, ever. If I played alts, I would not resort to cheating by TKing.

So there you are. Served.

<edit> Speaking of TK... here is the POS that TK'd me that very event I spoke about in the earlier post. Perhaps I was *too* good (along with my other AA TR pals) at spanking NC from the sky. It looks like having the numbers isn't enough, some NC feel they need to hop onto TR alts to TK. You see this guy C4'd my Skyguard?

There's your TK. But it was me who was killed.

https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428153774134106929/killboard

How silly are you? You said something to the effect of "I pulled my Vangaurd to shoot down NC air" sevral times in this thread, and your getting mad that you got called out on it?

FYI, TR tank is not a vangaurd, its a prowler.

Well, I am pretty silly, to answer your first question. Just look at my trash talk log while in game.

Second, I am not angry. I am confused. For example, please explain how I got 'called out' for pulling a Vanguard to shoot NC air. What did you expect me to do? Shoot 4th of July fireworks at them or drag my *** in circles on the ground like a dog?

Lastly,

Every faction has two tanks. One light, one main. The lightning, even as an AA platform, is still armor, it's on the light tank chassis. You made no point there.

So, please, explain that first part for me. Im TR. I shoot NC. WTF else should I be doing?

Hi, still waiting for you to explain yourself. I don't know how you arrived at "getting called out on [it]" and would like to know what [it] is. Was there some loss in translation?

Another problem caused by the lack of the PS1AMS.