Bad design strategy: If it's hard to do it should be extremely powerful

2 ESFs, or one competent MAX.

It's hard to beat the latter when it doesn't render.

Oh yeah.. invisible skyguard.

funny to see how silly this thread has gotten over nothing more than the butt-hurt caused by very rare and difficult trickshots which don't and will never affect the vast majority of players

if your ESF gets shot down by Daltons and Tank mainguns enough to warrant complaining over it you shouldn't be here posting... you should be taking a remedial piloting course

Did you just imply one competent MAX shuts down an expert lib team? I guess we stopped having a serious conversation?

Sure.

Rendering issues are fixed entirely.

While ESF can take out a stationary-non-reacting (read:afk) MBT from behind in one run, "assuming perfect play from both players" you say - that won't happen. Even the Walker AA gun can be certed so that one magazine can kill an ESF. And it takes roughly the same amount of time to empty it's clip (well maybe a bit more) as it takes the ESF to empty it's pods. And that's just the Walker not the Ranger. I'm trying to put this non-offensively, but you don't know what you're talking about in this particular case.
"Assuming perfect play" the ESF needs at least 2 strafes on a tank equipped with AA secondary. And it is the tank not repairing. In any other case I dare to say that the ESF would die, or at least none would be able to overcome the other (read: ESF disengages).

TL;DR
Assuming perfect play from both parties : AA secondary MBT>>ESF.

Not sure why you'd think perfect play from the ESF involves staying in clear line of sight at all times.

Even if we agreed ESFs somehow aren't a strong counter to tanks, the fact remains that Liberators are inarguably a strong counter to tanks. Which leads back to my original point that there isn't anything which strongly counters Liberators in the same way.

See, the examples you gave (Harassers, Liberators) require teamwork. A liberator SHOULD defeat an ESF one on one. Sorry, but I dis agree with you fully here. It's not even trying to dumb the game down, it's making it more solo friendly, which is not what this game is about. Things that require teamwork and coordination are great.

If you're shot down by a tank cannon, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Sorry, there is no complaining about skill here, when you get it, it's usually because you're flying in a straight line across a battlefield full of tanks and a bunch of them fired at you, and managed to hit a few shots. Boom, you died.

I almost agree with the SMG-Infils, but they're not game breaking, they're just a little too solo oriented for me.

The problem is that the game has a fundamental flaw in that you can't hurt targets beyond the hard cap render distance.
This is such a retrograde step on the first game I'm a little amazed, but seemingly this was the way to go.

How this plays out? You're just as likely to die in a liberator to a TANK than you are to any form of AA, because you need to fly low enough to the ground for targets to render and you be able to hit them consistently, and yet this takes your bomber in to the heights at which super-fast firing tank shells and dumb fire rockets can hit your plane. And by tank, I really mean Prowlers, because actually magriders don't do this at all on our server. Says something that.

I should be able to fly a liberator at heights where my main concern should be skyguards and enemy planes, and still be able to kill things on the ground when I hit them (e.g. a dalton should absolutely be a OHK on the top of a tank). Sadly, this isn't the case.

Read TL;DR again.
I didn't said that ESF is not a strong counter to tanks, I disagreed with you on the "fact" that AA equipped MBTs are sub-par to ESF considering "perfect play on both sides", and carried on explaining why. Do not put words in my mouth I did not said: even so, anyhow you try to bend it, if you can shoot a tank with ESF, the top-mounted gun has clear sight of you - and it has clear sight of you while you line up the shot, it has clear sight while you fire, it has clear sight while you disengage.
To sum it up: the AA has a longer (larger, wider whatever) window of opportunity firing at you, than you have firing at it, and that's not "all times" - just the time you need. That in itself is a weak defense of your point, maybe due to lack of experience in said encounters (no offense, just assuming).
I had nothing to argue about libs or any other points you brought up previously in the thread, even though I think your lib "rebalance" proposal is straight-up broken. We might reach a common point regarding projectile speed, though I think that adding more gravity to Dalton rounds would be a better way, just like it was done with the Zepher. Still, none of these (velocity and/or gravity) will solve the "problem" (quotation marks because I do not perceive it as such), as gunners would adapt in time. These would merely restrict the AA range of the weapon.
Regarding your original point, there is a strong counter to libs: A2AM. Even if they pop Flares for the first one, 10 missiles = dead Liberator. That is, if they get no support from team, nor can escape back to the WG. Seeing that most people see balance as 1v1 first, I think it is a valid option.

An AA equipped MBT is severely handicapped against other tanks and infantry though. ESFs with strong ground attack capabilities aren't significantly weaker against air targets though.

I would flip that sentiment around and say "It's incredibly boring to just hover up in the sky and drop bombs on doritos, I would prefer if tank guns weren't so stupidly overpowered against Liberators that you can't fly them close to the ground where they are actually fun to use".

Just wanted to confirm that there is a six page thread trying to argue that high skill players should be penalized for such.

If it matters to anyone, I kind of got the impression that Counters should be most effective at what they are made to counter. AP Tank shots should certainly still OHK infantry, but certain things should not be as good/better than most things at doing everything. Like Frac-maxes vs Infantry, Vulcans, ect. There is a difference between killing ESF's and infantry w/AP rounds, and then a dalton Lib being able to kill infantry as good as it does and Tanks. In that case it's more acceptable that it is effective v air & tanks, but too effective. V infantry

In that case I want all Tank Shells to OHK a Lib. A lib can Easily sit in the Deadzone above the Tank and shell them to kingdom come if there aren't any AA in the Area.

I also want 1 SG to be able to take out a Lib in under 2 seconds with constant flak fire so that you only get that one shot and not the 4 - 5 to kill SG like you do now. You've got to make AA effective to be able to counter **** otherwise you get November all over again where you had to have 3x the number of AA to ESF's just to kill them quick enough to save your tanks. In which case ESF's will just freaking melt in the sky before they see anything because everyone will have AA up 24/7 if there are tanks around because of the sheer destructive power of the Dalton. Yes I've used the Dalton. While I think it could do with a SLIGHT buff against tanks to reduced the number of direct hits needed BY 1! any more then that and you'll get Lib Pilots farming Tanks and then complaining when people get smart and pull 1001 AA units.

I also want ESF RPs to 4HK a Lib. So that ESF's can actually kill Libs before half the tank coloum is murdered. So air support is actually viable in keeping you alive and not be the massive tank it is now.

And I can almost assure you that you will piss off every lib pilot and Tank driver with this change. Its called fun. I wonder why ESF RP's were NERFED against tanks from the rear and that gave you a WHOPPING 1.5 SECS! to react. If you didn't play During November - December last year don't ******* comment on air balance.

I'm sure NO ONE wants to go back the November other then all the ESF / LIB Farmer pilots where it was just so ******* EASY to farm Infantry and tanks.

Comment to the OP -
Flak will always be better at Air Denial (the whole purpose with Flak) then AP rounds. The only thing AP rounds can do better is KILL. That is it.
What should AP rounds do against ESFs? 2 shot them? Is that it?
Yes, this is a nerf to skill. I can tell you know that I'm only as good as I am at taking out ESF's because I HATED THEM. I hated them to a degree that I would sit for hours in a deserted part of the map looking for small targets to shoot. Getting used to the drop at range. Calculating the relative size of an object to the drop of the shell. Calculating the travel time and the approximate distance of an ESF moving at cruising speed and how much that reflected into how much I had to lead.

I like killing tanks, with my Tank. Its simply what I like to do best. So I take AP / AV. This is by NO MEANS a good AA set-up. If I was set on AA duty in my outfit I simply would REFUSE to take a AP / AA VG to do so because 2 SGs do the job a whole lot better. What you are worried about is kills. You don't kill as much with flak as you do with AP because the ESF's have time to leave. Then theres those that stick around for 0.5secs longer then they should have and feel the punishment for doing so. I don't use my AP VG as a primary AA. Infact I don't even try and go for Air unless I'm bored and feel like trying to shoot down some ESF's (ESF Hunting is always fun). Not because its easy. But because its a challenge. Hitting a moving ESF is hard enough as it is when they have no back drop. Your shell can be quite hard to see. One change in a simple thing like Velocity and your shell has missed, or you get damn lucky and it hits anyway. They get way less kills then SG at ESF's its just that they come at a surpirse rather then giving you ample time to move. And tbh they shouldn't.
Its like trying to hit a fly with a needle rather then using a Fly Swatter. The Needle will always kill the fly if it hits. The Fly Swatter is more likely to hit with a small chance of actually killing the fly.

And can I ask why a Lib (A 2 person Aircraft) MUST die to an ESF (A 1 person Aircraft while costing less to repalce)? Its like saying a Lighting (A 1 person tank) MUST be able to kill a MBT (A 2 person tank).

Another poster (Sorry can't remember your name) asking what should be the Counter to a lib. The same thing thats a counter to MBT's other then itself?
Infantry. AA - Lockons and Burster fire anyone?
Or how about you pull some SG's?

Why does the ESF need to beat Lib? Its not an Air Superiority Fighter and I see MOST of them RP or Nosegun Ground Targets anyway. If you want the ESF to be an Air Superiority Fighter, remove the Hover, remove the RPs. But you know you'll have 99% of good ESF pilots waiting to beat the **** out of you at your doorstep in the meantime.

I like that Tanks can kill Aircraft if they get good. I've flown a lib and gunned a Lib quite often on my VS char that I almost always compliment the Tank that killed us because they are qutie difficult shots to make. While I'm won't say I'm the best of Dalton Gunners ( though Sarx in my Outfit is certainly the best I know) I get killed more often by ESF's then Tanks or any form of ground bases AA simply because unless there is a metric ****ton of it then you can get away if you play smart while you cannot get away from an ESF.

I don't agree with the first post.

Firstly, I was playing July-12. I can see you're against changes here, probably as you like the status quo, but it doesn't give you extra weight to your voice just for having played in November.

Secondly. Some good ideas in your post I think.

If you force liberators to operate at altitude, it will make hitting tanks difficult, but rewarding when you do. You can still balance them to operate at altitude, why there's this presumption you can't I don't understand: they don't have to have the same mechanics they do now.

Also; your skyguard. Grand. You can still have this, just balance it rather than heading straight for an extreme. If you want immense ROF then you get small damage per hit. If you want to tone it back by half, you can do twice the damage per hit. RL flak cannons pack a punch, but they don't fire at carbine speeds.

One hit kills from tanks? Fine. I won't need to fly at an altitude where you could possibly hit me. If I do; serves me right. Most of the time though, I'm expecting planes with AA. And I can bring some planes with AA to guard me. And maybe also a stock of flares rather than a recharge timer.

No one was asking for a single change in isolation. That's not how balance works. Currently; having to land 5 shots at 250m above ground level on a target that can be repaired as fast (by people who are invisible) isn't fun I don't find. It's an exercise in futility.

i mentioned this a few pages back but it didn't warrant any replies.

Played before then. Tanks sniping libs and dalton a2a libs weren't common back then because 1 dual burster max could kill you a hex away so they couldn't get within tank sniping range in the first place. After that libs got both an HP buff and a flak armor buff ON TOP OF composite armor and burster nerfs and nests were still forcing libs out at render distance.

Point being, maxes only rendered at infantry distance back then so you can't use back then as a point of balance when the AA game is now so different. Don't bring up Novemver/December when not many people HAD bursters and G2A lock ons in the FIRST PLACE.

This thread in summary.

No, I just hate my Tank dying to air in less time then it takes for AA to kill the damn things.
Whats the point in AA when your Tank will die anyway?

I don't mind my tank dying in less then a second if AA can take them out in just the same amount of time.

3 - 4 secs for 1 SG (dedicated for AA) to take out 1 ESF with RPs (While also being able to take on other Air due to AA Nosegun) is stupid when the ESF can kill a MBT / SG in less then 2 secs.



Skip to 6:50 on that vid.
On the first tank he comes from above but watch about 10 secs later he comes from behind an MBT and takes it out in seconds.
Thats what Tanker had to endure for nearly 2 months before SoE come off "vacation" just after realising the game in a crappy unbalanced **** pile thats lead to a lot of the hatred towards HE / RPs today.

I can say now that if RPs were in the same state as they are now as they were then I wouldn't hate them so much.
I hope you can then understand why I hate ******* RPs and why I don't really want to see air get buffed against Tanks.

And I already mentioned in my previous post that the Dalton I feel deserves a buff against tanks to reduced the number of Direct Shots needed.

Curious, did you even play beta? For a while air was not even a factor in combat because AA was so effective.