[Video] MAX - even it's weakness is strong

So MAXes needed a buff..?

You killed a liberator that hovered unmoving in the air and didn't fire at you.
WELL DONE YOU.

So, what do I see here?

- Dedicated pilot complaining about MAX AA being OP, check.
- Declaring that ESF and Libs die in only a couple of shots, then shooting on a 1/3 stationary Lib for half a minute before it gets killed by someone else, check.
- Getting run over by a Reaver while wielding said OP Burster, check.
- Declaring MAX as OP based on personal infantry playstyle, check.
- MAX nerf thread in disguise, check.

You might want to consider what MAX units are suppose to be used for and not on personal preference in one on one infantry combat. Pointing out that you can run to a terminal without respawning the unit to switch weapons, well that's to be expected because you don't shoot yourself in the head when you want to grab a different gun on any other infantry unit either. Yet any other infantry unit is more versatile than a MAX is at any given time.

A MAX is fire support in either an offensive or defensive manner. Not to mention that MAX units can't do anything on their own but kill, they can be the best player ever and they'll still lose a base because they can't prevent generators from blowing or points form flipping.

Bad thread is bad.


Someone please close.

So balance is not in your interest, you just like MAX units to be as powerful as possible?

its rock paper scissors, this guy is rock, nerf paper.
there are plenty of things that destroy dual bursters easy (any tank, C4 LAs, HAs, Libs with more than 1 person. etc etc)
there are plenty of things that aircraft destroy easy (infantry, tanks (with the exception of skyguard), flashes)
don't play rock and cry that paper can kill you, go hunt scissors to smash.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts about balance here. You say MAX is OP because it requires more time to learn how to fly so once you know how to stay in the air you should just murder AA MAXes without a problem? Well news flash, good pilots already do that, maybe not without any problems but they do.

Or do you think Bursters are OP because you can defend yourself with them if infantry is stupid enough to come at you one by one? Maybe you should try out a Vortex MAX and see how much fun it is to not be able to defend yourself most of the time.

This game also isn't about deathmatch, although some people seem to think it is, so it's not about everyone should kill everything with the same amount of effort. This is a team based games where you take on certain roles to further your empires agenda and each role has it's perks and it's weaknesses. The MAX has survivability and firepower against one type of enemy (if he mixes he sucks at both), it's weakness is everything else.

A MAX can clear a room but he can't take the point or blow the gens if supported it's the most powerful infantry class, if solo it's the most worthless one because you can't do anything worthwhile. If a MAX could take points and blow gens then you would have a point, but he can't so what exactly is the problem?

Sorry but its hard to keep my respect for you Matti.

This is the second time you come with a movie, where you pretty much just call nerfs, and talk down to MAX players. Its honestly very hard to justify this thread as much more then a troll thread, if nothing else for the very tone you use, and the fact you post it in a max section.

Also I'm curious you really talk alot about skill in all your video's, but frankly thats a very vague concept. And after watching so many of your videos I can't help but get an impression that the only thing you regard as "skillful" is flying an ESF, and twitch shooters.

Lastly concussion grenades affect infantry EXACTLY the same, so a max unit is affected the same as any other infantry. You turn slower, and you move slower. if a guy runs straight into your barrel, and the explosion wasn't so close that it completedly blurred your screen, then you can simply kill them anyways. Or are you implying something else I didn't get?

It's almost seems as if you try to take offence I just want some resonable balance. Some players will
always defend their playstyle no matter what, regardless of skill, effort or usefulness of other classes,
vehicles or playstyles.
I have posted suggestions about nerfes, balances
and more skillrequired rocketpods and I don't get offended if someone says "rocket pods
are skilless". Many times they are, at close/mid range on defenseless infantry yes. On lone
tanks as well.



When rocket pods had their splash reduced I never objected, Liberators and HEAT too, it
was imbalanced and fixed. Why should AA and AI MAXes be this powerful, it makes no sense?

xmags for the bursters are incredible: the video

I have to love your proclaimation that you won't use the MAX because it's obviously overpowered yet you often go on 100 kills per hour tear in your Mosquito despite these OP Burster MAX. Quite a number of your videos also show you ripping apart these OP Buster MAX. ESF are the most powerful unit in the game by a significant margin and only requires 1 occupant to engage any and every target wherever they choose. If there's no AA coverage, you kill everything that moves with very little resistance.

Your videos are often condescending (your Skyguard video was absolutely ridiculous and missed the point by a massive margin - Skyguards follow tank columns in the open trying to keep air away from MBT's, not sit in a base that already has air cover shooting at nearby infantry) and do nothing but show your extreme bias.

I want balance. ZOE and Lockdown shouldn't affect Bursters - that I'll concede. I don't believe balance is being able to fly ESF in an area around a large battle that has significant AA coverage, allow you to deal your damage and escape largely unscathed.. over and over. That appears to be the wishes of those complaining about AA.

IMO, ESF should have little to no ground capability and used solely to escort Liberators and engage enemy ESF and their Liberators. The fact that ESF are more efficient ground pounders than Liberators show how OP they still are.

If ESFs are so OP then why is it the MAXes SPM is more than twice that of the ESF's?
There is a lot of flying to make a 10+ minutes video and a lot of time practicing flying for months before that.
I would like to see someone with as little time in an ESF as I have with the MAX, fly around and "do well"
by lolpoding. A few experienced pilots can do that in a few areas of the map, or when servers are mostly empty.

It's not. Sadly CupBoy took down his site but it showed that as BR went up, ESF was the highest SPM in the game. Look at the highest score this week, a big lolpodder on Briggs. Regardless, the arbitrary XP value placed on vehicles that only require me to hit it a few times so I can collect XP when it dies does not distinguish whether something is OP or not. Previously when we didn't get massive assist XP when we weren't the one who killed the ESF, you were lucky to get 2000XP/hour - did that make Bursters UP?

An ESF can lay waste to every unit in the game and when it's in too deep, due to the fact that it's also the fastest and most maneuverable unit in the game, has a chance of escape. Nothing else in the game can boast that flexibility. Every other vehicle has to make a decision about the types of targets it wants to focus on and then suffer a penalty when it's being engaged by something it didn't equip to deal with. ESF's don't have to make that choice.

You're pitting a fast, maneuverable offensive platform against a localised defensive one. It's not difficult to score mountains of XP as an AA MAX if there's plenty to shoot at. It doesn't take much time to get the hang of how to lead targets like the ones in your video that made no effort to jink. Essentially you want to handicap AA so that you'll have an easier time under the guise of 'skill'.

As far as games that involve air combat, the control of your aircraft in this game is about as simple as it gets. AA also poses a much lower threat than your typical air game. I'm not saying it doesn't take practice to get good at it and there's a skill level that many of the top ESF's have that many won't be able to achieve - you've just been given many crutches to deal with AA that you normally wouldn't be given in anything but a simple arcade shooter. As I've said before, I don't choose to not fly in this game because it's too hard, I choose not to because it's too easy.

Matti your not going to get the audience to acknowledge what your posting without seeing WHY BURSTERS are what they are today . A few posts ago I replied in kind to one of your other posts, you just mere glanced over that, didn't even respond . Just kept spouting the company line , which to be honest reeks of elitism and or " false pretenses of balancing the game out " .

Bursters weren't anything like this when the game released at all. Thus you had air literally dominating the entire game. Whoever won the air game won the base almost 95% of the time. Bursters were buffed to this status to COUNTER this affect . You do realize that right ? Right now this current debate is turning into " Yeah your a tea party person that toes the line , impossible to reason with " with players that play the Max class at the moment.

All your proposing are nerfs to Maxes in general without saying " Yeah ESF's need a nerf in XYZ " specifically . You just go on to say " Yeah pods have had their AOE splash damage area reduced" and that's it . No straight reductions in how much damage they do to vechs / or infantry or even other aircraft . No actual #'s proposals or anything of that sort. Just stating " It needs a nerf , NERF IT " isn't enough . That's like me saying that C4 needs a huge nerf because it kills entire groups of people in a few seconds , which indirectly benefits me the greatest .

I will agree to aspects that ( if only pure ESF users saw this about their own class as well) Maxes need toning down on; IF ONLY ESFs were adjusted as well. I do NOT want a return of the old glory days of " Your not in an aircraft, your food you have 0 chance to kill me " . This is the kind of thinking that will NOT add to the game play. You play twitch shooters, so do i . You know as well as I do that in a twitch shooter , ANY player has the chance to kill you. Doesn't matter if its someone using a shock rifle the first time or nailing you with a rail . How would you like it if in say Quake Live , there is absolutely 0 way for any player to kill you because your in that specific class ? Unless that said player has to pull that same exact class to have a slim chance of killing you .........That's how it felt with aircraft. Save for the extremely low population of vanguard gunners and the occasional Liberator crew , ESF's have little to fear unless there was another ESF ( first 2 months).

With Maxes there's always a way to get them killed. Even in their current incarnation . Just a few days ago on Miller I was killed several times by a skilled AP magrider gunner(s) / LA's with C4 and infiltrators with flash ( flash mowing) . Had 0 chance to react and was instaglibbed . What I'm getting at is there are multiple classes that can take me down and frag me under 2 seconds , be it being bullet hosed to death , C4'd to death , eating a rocket to the face , run over by vechs or such . Even then to use maxes to their full potential you NEED a team. Me? I've run with an engineer pet that I've played with since PS1 . Have used maxes of all types across all empires for both PS1 and 2 . I don't see that coordination between ESF's at all ( outside of liberator crews) . I don't see them having to rely on an entire different class at all . You can grab an ESF and use it to its full potential WITHOUT the need of being in a squad at all . Also ESF's need not to fear from medics, infils, engineers , LA's the majority of ground vechs and the array of weapons that kill ground forces. I've seen many Prowlers killed by Medics packing C4. How many times have you seen a medic kill an ESF ? 0 unless they were in a turrent and even then those don't move and are in static positions or they were in a drop pod .

Another point : If you've ever faced off against Theleadmachine , Glorin , as a Max against them its all about who lands their first shots in and who actually baits / uses their environment the best ( this is why charge is the best max ability , it provides real actual counter play in terms of positioning, if there wasn't any you'd have 0 chance beating those types of HA's / LA's ) . I bet if you faced off against those types of players in an aircraft you'd come out and win 100% of the time because they're NOT using the same class ( ESF's) that you are.

At least there's counter play between DIFFERENT classes . With air you just don't have that. If AA was nerfed into the ground again then how would you as an infantry / tank user actually be able to have to counter aircraft ? ( save for those extremely rare AP skilled vanguard gunners ) . This was tried for the first 2 months and you know what ? All i saw was the path of least resistance, didn't matter if your side was getting ***** by aircraft your better off farming infantry for that uber SPM .

Tl Dr ;

Propose Numbers, straight " ZOMG NERF" isn't going to get you anywhere . Listen to counter arguments , don't just toe the company line 24 x 7 . This goes for BOTH sides of the coin (ESF users and Maxes) since there is historical evidence to back up such claims ( for both sides) . There's always compromise , by not acknowledging what occurred in the past and addressing that issue we're just going to end up with the same results again and again and again .

Higher score as a Max rather than an ESF... Full stop. Dumbest thing ive ever heard... Also completely false.

all right all right i see no middle tought of it ... max can wear powerfull set up but each of them are to make lots of dmg to a precise target as air/ground/unit . as I saw from playing on all the sides that,yes its difficult to down a max indeed but with good teamwork they are easily down. the only thing for the air part .. air vehicul doesnt look like they have the same range for field of view. any ground unit will see them 50 meters or so befor the air can load them. i dont know if its because air move faster and the time that the online stuff load the surrounding is harder but the adventage of air superiority is alot based on field of view for a better support. and in that case a max will have a long step foward on air. as a tank or prettty much any ground vehicle the fight is most likely fair. and if u play teamwork well and u are 2 or more regular unit its pretty easy to bring him down . the exacte weakness .. i dont know but this whole game is based on team work so if ur that mad of max versatility just bring up some friends and gear up everything u got for max hunting!!! =)

rly im not a fan of air but .. once in the airplane the stuff dosnt load,even with max horizontal view distance.

If you want better ESF gameplay (and by better I mean more fun, not just more certs), you should be crusading for a Liberator AA protection buff.

Liberator/AA balance is screwed. Libs really need to be better at soaking up AA (while staying vulnerable to ESF).

A nice chunky high-hp belly-shield on Libs would drastically increase their use. More Libs = more air targets for ESF and more combat outside of effective AA range.

ESF dominate Libs
Libs dominate ground
Ground dominates ESF

That would be the ideal. Thats how its supposed to work. Unfortunately Libs are trash so all ESF have available most of the time is attacking ground targets. Which they are (quite rightly) bad at.

Well given the amount of crying by ESF's , its a good thing I've already started cert dumping into ESF's (Timer + NV is easy to get ) . Just look at reddit, its all about aircraft these days anyhow. Maxes should have never incurred the wrath of the airgods.

First of all, thanks for your feedback.

I'm sorry I didn't respond to the earlier post so a few of the things about what you are saying here.
First of all, yes air was OP but it has already been nerfed. Rocketpods, Zephyr and Dalton have all been nerfed
and rightfully so.

Second you are one of many players who seem to belive that I never suggested any nerfes
or balance changes to ESFs. I have, just look at post nr:9 in this very thread. Many times
have I suggested that rocket pods should have a more skillbased design and more of an anti
vehicle role

When it comes to how easy it is to kill a MAX, that goes for ESFs as well.
There are many weapons that will one shot an ESF, I have been at both sides
of all of them. I have had the same discussion with one of my friends on Miller,
a really good tanker. He says the same thing all the time about ESFs being OP
yet every time I am his gunner, we take down a lot more ESFs and Libs. than
the time we get killed by them our selfs.

And we could have brought some AA support with us, we just never needed it
Some of it is recorded BTW

If you think it is that easy to use ESFs, than maby you can show me.
Make a TR on Cobalt, I'll get you an ESF and show us how you can dominate
all by your self. Maby I just missed something. If you prefer a reaver I have
that on Miller, Scythe on Cobalt as well.

I really don't want air to just dominate everything but PvP balance, why don't you
belive me? Don't you know I really like infantry gameplay as well as flying?

You don't like AA, Matti, we got it the first time, honest!