I never said it wasn't out weighted, I said if you remove the increased agility it would be. Plus it's not 10% more damage taken, as I said in my post it's 20 to 32% depending on armour type and level. That's why if you remove the increased agility without giving it anything in compensation it would be under powered. 20 to 32% extra damage taken in exchange for only 12 to 20% extra damage done how would that be balanced? It wouldn't, and that's before you add the other downsides of ZOE.
I wish we had data on the damage increase. In the VR, rank 5 ZOE caused my blueshifts to require only one less round to kill an infantry target at point blank range. Maybe the buff is more effective on the higher-damage or AV max weapons? For my regular dual-blueshift setup it seems like a one rank wonder, though. The speed increase is really nice
Shamelessly quoting myself because I worded the first sentence completely wrong . I did say it was out weighted but not in the context implied. That's what I meant to say. How it should have read is this: I never said it was out weighted if you factor in the speed, I said that the increased damage taken outweighs the increased damage done which it does. Plus it's not 10% more damage taken, as I said in my post it's 20 to 32% depending on armour type and level. That's why if you remove the increased agility without giving it anything in compensation it would be under powered. 20 to 32% extra damage taken in exchange for only 12 to 20% extra damage done how would that be balanced? It wouldn't, and that's before you add the other downsides of ZOE.
You seem to not have actually read my post entirely. I believe the lateral or side-to-side or strafing speed increase is a problem (just so we're absolutely on the same page). The increased run speed is certainly nice, but not that gamechanging in actual firing combat, it's mostly for positioning*. The increased strafing performance, however, allows ZOE MAXes to avoid (more) damage, which is countering the drawback of the ability (increased damage taken). That seems wrong. Also: warping, for lack of a better word. Flickering, stuttering. Is it massively badly doing that? No, but it's there and besides this isn't the main point anyway, is it? Strafing performance is absolutely increased, which means the ability is itself able of countering its one drawback. - I suppose an analogy would be the Aegis shield dealing damage when it is being hit by small arms fire (a "Thorns" mechanic). - Wat? - Well, the drawback of using the shield is that while it's up, you can't fire. If the shield ITSELF deals damage, it's mitigating that one drawback. As I stated, the main problem I have is with the strafing speed, not the damage output or the forward/backward movement. I am sure devs are able of putting in some numbers that will keep lateral speed equal while forward/backward speed is being buffed. (( As a sidenote, I do believe that there would be room for no agility bonus AT ALL. You could then choose to use ZOE if you feel confident you can shoot quite a bit better than the people you're going up against. If you, as a player, are capable of ending fights quickly, using an ability that augments that through increased firepower (and increased risk) is worthwhile. )) * Yes, yes, positioning it incredibly important. Would you rather I say "omgwtfbbq MAXes 2 fast nerf plz"?
How so? Something that costs 2250 certs should certainly be a net advantage. ZOE with no movement increase would not be worth a single cert, and next to no one would ever sacrifice even Charge 1 for ZOE 5.
1. You're being a little...unhelpful. I lined out why the increased strafing speed seems wrong in multiple posts in this thread, you can read up on this page and the previous. Yeah, ZOE should give a net advantage. The increased movement speed forward and backward, and the increased damage dealt, are enough advantage over the disadvantage of taking more damage. The increased ability of avoiding damage through faster strafing (and associated side-effects) is too big a cherry on top, for reasons I (as mentioned) outlined earlier. 2. That's how you feel. It would be used a lot less, certainly, but as a bit of a thought experiment (as I wrote it was a sidenote - you did read that, right?) I feel that it would still have a use. If you're twitchy and can shoot well ( >before the other guy does) you can drop people very fast. And heal back up with Nano-Regen, for example. Do I feel the forward/backward movement needs to go? No. Damage boost? No. Increased strafe speed? Yes. I get the feeling some people are just giving posts a cursory scan at best, and then bashing away on their keyboards.
About the same as the raven then, except that the raven has 3 more rockets in the magazine, and can guide the rockets around. And he also doesnt need to spend 2250 certs to make his raven 1shot (read: 1 rocket from each arm)
If its only forwards and backwards, you might aswell take charge since its faster, doesnt make you take double damage (Based on that the MAX has 80% bulletresistance from stock, ZOE making it take 20% more damage effectively putting your bulletresistance to 60% so theoretically a bullet wich deals 100dmg without any resistances deals 20dmg with 80% bullet resistance, 40 with 60% bulletresistance. 20x2 = 40 = Double damage taken.) Our tanks strafe, so why shouldnt our max? It doesnt strafe faster than an infantryman does. The only thing it does faster than them are walking and reversing. Mobility is the VS faction perk after all
ZOE without a way to avoid damage (read strafe) would just be a worse lockdown, yes you can still move but you also get gunned down faster while having little to show for it in return (20% dmg increase compared to up to 50% for lockdown). We may as well discuss if the NC MAX shield needs to slow down the MAX while it's up because it's negating a lot of damage on the MAX, why should he be able to advance through a hail of fire just as efficient as without using it?
I did read your post, hence why I specifically referred to ZOE's agility rather than its speed. My apologies if I wasn't clear enough. The increased speed is nice don't get me wrong, but you're still a large, highly visible, not to mention loud, target. Given that the increased damage is outweighed by the increased damage taken without the increased agility ZOE would only be useful while you are not being shot at which would make it highly situational, not to mention pretty much useless in large groups which is what the game is designed for and balanced around. Lockdown is also highly situational but they get a far greater DPS buff than ZOE currently provides to make up for it.
After heavy use, I find ZOE is much too strong in small fights, and much too weak in large fights. In small fights or doing AA/AV, the extra damage taken is barely a drawback at all. In large fights the extra damage taken means it's not worth having ZOE on - you'll take more extra damage than you put out. I think the best adjustment would be to remove the armor penalty and replace it with a damage over time effect when ZOE is active. This would be a more significant penalty in small fights and when on AA/AV duty, and a less significant penalty in large fights. Having ZOE permanently active would no longer be an option (at least not without an engineer on hand). I think infantry probably also need a slightly better chance of evading the ZOE MAX - a slight reduction to the movement speed bonus and/or a delay on activation might be in order.
I think the crux above all lies in the instant activation and de-activation of ZOE. Because this is done instantly, the drawback is merely a single button press away from being cured and turned into the most optimal situation. If you are in a situation where you suddenly take a lot of small arms fire, you can simple turn off ZOE and there is no longer any disadvantage. Or perhaps you don't want to turn it off because you would rather benefit from the speed increase to get to safety faster, in which case it isnt a disadvantage either. Because taking increased damage for a shorter time (to get to cover) is prefered over taking reduced damage for a longer period. So thats the issue really, ZOE isnt really ever a disadvantage. It simply, constantly, challenges the user to ask himself "Is increased damage and speed worth taking more damage?" If it isnt, turning ZOE off doesnt come at a price at all, its instant. And can then be activated when it is worth it again. But that is not a drawback that is an issue of skill and experience.
The ZOE allows movement faster than normal speed, which includes backpedaling speed, and increased damage. You forgot the entire first bit of that sentence when making the comparison to Lockdown! I do not feel there is ANY need for increased damage avoidance built in to ZOE. The ability allows for much better picking of fights and breaking them off while maintaining DPS. There is no need for the ability to be "safe" enough to always be on (in part through strafing), which is what we're seeing in many, many cases. ZOE goes on and stays on. If you take the example of a lone infantryman with a rocket launcher, trying to kill a ZOE MAX that has been rather effective in a small-to-medium sized engagement, why should he or she have a harder time hitting the strafing MAX in addition to (A) dealing with a MAX that has an increased capability of positioning well, picking fights and returning to cover while firing, and (B) deals enough damage to put the infantryman down really rather rapidly? An increased chance of rockets flying past the (strafing) MAX is too much of a good thing. Same deal for small arms fire. Faster strafing ZOE MAX means more bullets are going to whiz past. If that is enough bullets more, the ZOE is giving a net boost to survivability! Sound theoretical? I don't think anyone has numbers on such a thing, but I believe it is entirely possible there are plenty players who miss quite a lot more on a blurrier, faster sidewards-moving MAX. If you (or someone) would disagree - then what do you care about the lateral speed anyway? Your comparison to the NC MAX shield doesn't work front or back. The Aegis MAX is slower already because you cannot run with the ability on. Advancing through a hail of fire is the point of the ability (check the ability with a friend in VR, have him shoot with small arms & then try with explosives, see how fast the shield drains, just for giggity!), like the point of ZOE to me seems increased damage and mobility, while sacrificing resistance. Adding avoidance to that same ability (lateral speed) is negating the sacrificed resistance in those situations where it counts: shootouts. A more correct analogy would be the shield dealing damage, as I described in my post above. ---------------- MAXes are already extremely tough to kill with one, two, let alone three! engineers healing them in shootouts. Surely you've seen Biolab stairway fights lately, in the room where the shield generator used to be? One side shooting up through the door, the other shooting down through a door. That's a "large group" engagement to me as there is a lot of stuff flying around even though we're dealing with a doorway bottleneck, and I see ZOE MAXes there doing fine and surviving. Any other large group engagement is "too large" to be realistic, and I'm in any case not sure that strafing in general makes a difference at those sizes and ranges (so just remove the increased lateral speed ). Outside, being seen by 50 people? There's tanks outside, you shouldn't be seen by so many people. Inside a Biolab then, also being seen by 50 defenders while you're walking off an air platform? That is not a situation ANYTHING should survive, ZOE or no ZOE. And no, that's not something the Aegis survives for more than seconds either. In small scale engagements ZOE really shines, and that's where the strafing speed is most noticeable and (to me) least welcome. I'm not even sure you can say the game is balanced around large scale engagements - a small group of players in the right place can be extremely effective, and dig in really deep for a long time. Also, fighting in small-scale engagements is where you notice (and like or dislike) individual abilities, individual weapons most. Lastly, large-scale fights are but a concept, as you're always having a one-on-one, one-on-a-few inside those larger engagements anyway! I categorically disagree with ZOE only being useful with the increased lateral speed. The increased forward/backward movement means the MAX is far better at positioning, outside of fights as well as in combat, and that retreating infantry, in the process of whipping out rocket launchers or going for a terminal to get C4 cannot do this. Because they are dead, killed by increased MAX firepower. Yes, the ZOE increases damage taken. But you can strafe, you always could. It didn't need to be faster. Secondly, you can turn off ZOE, if you're in the a room with realistically nowhere to go for whomever you just engaged. The ability doesn't need to be on then, does it? You're going to kill whomever you engaged, and it is then your choice to keep ZOE on or not, depending on how good of a shot you are with your current weapons (you're good? higher reward for your increased vulnerability tradeoff). It doesn't have to be a no-brainer, these abilities are meant to be used tactically. That actually touches on your description of ZOE versus Lockdown. The latter is highly situational - ZOE can perhaps be described as needing to be a bit more situational. Reverting strafing speed to normal levels (let's not forget that's what we're talking about; not a complete removal of strafing ability) is the right step in that direction. ---------------- Your data is wildly off I'm afraid. You do not take double damage, you take about 20% more from small arms fire. Apparently. I read there's no consensus yet as to how it works exactly. Please check the YouTube video I will link below for a VS MAX getting a full clip in the chest with and without ZOE. You'll see that the increased damage taken (from small arms) is about the same as the increased DPS difference. That is an older video but I read the idea is about the same. I will link a Reddit thread with more info below. Your tank strafing is not an argument that has any bearing on the MAX's ZOE ability. NC tanks shoot shooty stuff, why shouldn't our MAX? Wait - they already shoot shooty stuff, like all MAXes could strafe already. No, the ZOE MAX doesn't strafe faster than an infantryman does (please imagine that), but they're now strafing too fast for a MAX. Because that's what it is. A MAX, and not a random Medic. The game doesn't handle strafing too nicely (which is why doing it is so effective), and things become a tad flickery and twitchy, which is why strafing for infantry has been nerfed in the past (and the Magrider's has been tuned too, let's not forget; it's not an ability that is "just fine" no matter what). Even without that, it simply becomes more complex to hit a ZOE MAX. How easy or hard that is aside, it's increased avoidance. This increased avoidance counters the increased damage taken too well. The ability is making up for its own flaw. Earlier in this post I wrote about an analogy I made to a damage-dealing Thorns NC Aegis shield. ---------------- Nothing I've ready made me change my mind. The ZOE strafing speed is a contradiction in itself, and increases survivability too much in situations where MAXes are very dangerous already. Keep the damage, keep the forward/backward speed, the damage taken, hell make it less purple for all I care, but granting higher lateral speed was a wrong decision. ---------------- Links YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=ZyBRqO6LmUY (remove space after .com) Reddit info thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1eu5bf/what_are_the_actual_stats_on_the_zoe/
As I said above I think the strafe speed may be a bit too high, but we can't talk about mobility and at the same time say that lateral movement isn't mobility, that doesn't make sense. If ZOE would have it's agility bonus either canceled or severely reduced we need to look at lowering some other penalties of ZOE, personally I'd like to have that obnoxious pink glow removed because for me that's the biggest drawback when you remove agility, visibility. If you want to change ZOE into more of a positioning ability that would also be the logical conclusion, because getting in an advantageous position and glowing bright pink for everyone to see doesn't mix well. A good position can most of the time only be exploited if you can get there unnoticed, wreak havoc and then relocate.
Nobody talked lateral movement belonging to "mobility" or not. I think any capacity for movement is, by its very definition, mobility. Lateral mobility is, and does not have to be, tied to any other sort of mobility (in this case). In other words, ZOE MAXes can have forward and backward movement speed increases without strafing speed being affected. Agility is just a word you can fill in however you would like. How far the MAX can spread its legs, and whether or not it can put its palms on the floor without crouching. Strafing does not need to come alongside forward and backpedaling boosts. I think it has no place in MAX combat, beyond what MAXes can already do. I wouldn't even want my Scatter Max to have faster strafing, it would feel like cheesing hard. Many, many people are not running the game with 100 FPS or more, which increases the difficulty of hitting a "fast" strafer. Even without client performance (and, as people more knowledgeable than me have written about, server-side performance regarding fast directional changes) issues, strafing intends to take away damage (obviously). I do not think it is okay for ZOE to be granted a higher capability of avoiding damage in face-to-face combat. I'm quite fine with the glow being toned down, its damage output and positioning advantages - just not with its avoidance of bullets and rockets while it's standing strafing and firing.
The problem is the lack of activation time. That needs to be added in - I can go into lock down on my TR and not be able to fire both guns for a second or two (if you time it right you can fire at least one gun). I don't see why ZOE gives a damage buff it should be a straight trade in movement speed but at the cost of damage taken and/or a small penalty to damage output.
Right can I stop you there, while I don't mean to be disingenuous, your argument, by your own admission, is based on 1vs1 and small scale fights. Now there is no denying ZOE is good in small scale fights and especially 1vs1 however as I said the game is based on and balanced around large scale fights. Simply put the game is not and never will be balanced for small scale fights (just look at ESF's) so arguing balance from that perspective is completely pointless. But for the sake of discussion I will address some of the points you made: That's why you don't kill the MAX, you kill the engineers. It's basic MMO 101; don't kill the tank, kill the healers. If that's not currently possible, then you make it possible. Have you ever tried to repair a ZOE MAX that's ADADA'ing? You can't, at least not reliably because the repair gun gets funny if you try to repair something that's not stationary. Plus there is a whole world of difference between "doing fine and surviving" and actually being an asset to your team. Here's a question, in a large shoot out like the one you described, which ability is more useful and has better synergy with your team, ZOE or the Aegis Shield? Hint it's not ZOE. As Jkar correctly pointed out while the increased speed does allow for greater positioning, that benefit is countered by one the increased visibility and two the fact that MAX's are loud. Even in the middle of a fire fight you can still hear a MAX coming long before you see them, even the VS MAX. While his numbers were off, to be exact it increases the damage you take by 20 to 32% depending on armour type and level. It works by reducing your damage resistance. I'm currently working to upload test videos to youtube. While I haven't uploaded videos of my damage taken tests at the time of writing, you're welcome to check out how far I have gotten by going to this thread: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...-are-the-hard-stats-for-the-zoe.127681/page-2 Actually that was not why it was nerfed, especially on the Mag, and let's not forget that the Mag had it's strafing nerf reverted because SOE realised that nerfing the main thing that made the tank good was a mistake. Just as it would be with ZOE. Also you keep bringing up the games dodgy netcode and hitbox's, sorry but that is not a valid argument for nerfing ZOE. If the game has a problem you fix the game you don't nerf everything the problem gives an advantage to. Take flinch for example, back at launch it was giving TR and VS a huge advantage over the NC. Did they nerf the TR and VS? No. They "fixed" flinch. Fair enough, but nothing you've said has made me change my mind either. If anything you've just made me even more certain that if they do nerf ZOE, the strafing is the one thing that shouldn't change. Unless you've got any further points to bring up I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
The only thing that's been tuned about the magrider is that you cant magburn up 90 degree inclines, and that you cant jump off bridges and survive. Speaking of Magburner, Charge would have made a great VS specific ability, hadnt it been given to all factions. If you're only giving us forward and backwards speed, while still making us take more damage, there's 0 (ZERO) point to cert into ZOE. Why would anyone want a slower version of charge that makes you take loads more damage? it makes no sense. Speaking of countering weaknesses, the same logic can be applied to the NC MAX shield. MAXes are weak to Rocketlaunchers, the Shield lets you soak 2 of them That's 2 more ( 3 more than a ZOE max ) than the other maxes can survive. Perhaps a balance change to the shield could be that it only soaks small arms? just my thoughts. Lets not forget that you spent 100 inf resources and a 10min CD to pull your MAX, ofcourse one would expect to have an advantage in 1v1 versus infantry. Just look at the NC MAX. You dont even get to fire a rocket at it if you walk around a corner and a Hacksaw max sits there, since 1 round from each arm kills you, an effective TTK of 0sec. As the game doesnt handle strafing too well, lets nerf infantry strafespeed too, since they also warp about if you play on a DSL modem. If you nerf ZOE because they warp about, you must also nerf infantries strafespeed too. Infantry are also a smaller target than the ZOE max, and therefor even harder to hit. Infantrymen does not glow pink and shoot lightning like the ZOE does either. If you're hellbent on getting the ZOE unviable, let me propose this change for you, to please both sides of this. #1 Remove DMG bonus from the overdrive #2 Make speed scale with certlevel, so Rank 1 ZOE isnt as fast as a fully certed one #3 Keep rank 5 ZOE's speed as it is today. #4 Reduce armor even further by 5%
