Nc(Max) The big Winner of last "Balancing"

Reading this gave me brain cancer.

Also, this is at least the 100th NC is OP whine thread with plenty of misinformation...

What faction difference are you even talking about? The ONLY difference between the factions (besides the ESL's launched today) is that the NC possess a dominating Max. All other slight faction difference are so minor they are almost nonexistent.

Well, the MAX difference is minor seen from an NC perspective, so I guess that means the factions are identical?

Thankfully good game design and balance is not based on ill perceptions. When this team tries to take this game MLG and are forced to present a product that is balanced and fair to ensure game outcome is determined by skill then it will be admitted that the NC Max is Op and it will be balanced.

Its Higby's favourite noob cannon.

The NC max will continue to be a balance problem until one of two things happens.

A) They introduce shotguns for the TR and VS maxes.
B) They figure out a way to balance ALL shotguns.

The NC maxes strength is also it's weakness and that is that it has shotguns. It's fortunes are tied to the fate of all of the other shotguns in game. If they nerf any of the NC max's shotguns then no one will use them over heavies with shotguns.

That's what I was going to say and then I thought of something, looked it up, and did some math. Here is what I found.

The NC max shotguns all have 6 pellets and deal 143 damage per pellet (except the mattock which no one uses @112).
Regular shotguns have 6 pellets that deal 143 damage per pellet. (except the new pump actions.)

Both max and infantry shotguns (excluding the mattock and pump actions) have similar reload times (~2.5/~3.5)
Both have the same fire rates for semi auto and automatic versions (250 rpm and 300 rpm)
Both have similar magazine sizes (6/8 vs. 7)
Both have similar CoF accuracy while hip firing (nearly identical with the hacksaw being a hair worse than others)
The max pellets travel faster (higher bullet speed)
I don't know what "pellet spread" is and is not listed for regular shotguns so I can't compare that line.

What that leaves us with is a max that has, essentially, two infantry shotguns in almost every respect, un-neutered in any way.

Let's compare the mercy (widely considered to be the best TR max weapon) to the cycler TRV (there is a reason for this)

Both weapons do 143 damage per bullet. The mercy has about half of the cycler's hipfire CoF but has nowhere near it's ADS accuracy because it cannot ADS. Mercy has a faster reload (2.4/3 vs 3/4). Slower bullets (450 vs 550). And has 10 more rounds in it's magazine (50 vs 40).

But, here is the biggest difference, the Mercy fires at 425.53 rpm and the cycler fires at 845 rpm. Two Mercy's would fire 851 rpm (that's fire rate, it does not account for reloads, obviously)

So it takes TWO mercy's to equal one infantry weapon (same damage per bullet, half the rate of fire) but EACH of the NC's max shotguns equals one infantry weapon.

It is a similar story with the Cosmos (considered to be the VS's best AI weapon). The closest analogy is actually the cyclone, the first SMG for the NC as it has the closest rate of fire and bullet damage but the principle still applies, it takes two max AI weapons to equal one infantry weapon. Alternatively we could compare it to the H-V45 to keep it in faction, even though it has different bullet damage and RoF it is VERY close in dps, to TWO cosmos'.

Either way, the problem is apparent, The NC max's AI weapons are each as good as one infantry weapon, giving them the firepower of two infantry, The TR and VS max's AI weapons each have HALF of the dps of an infantry weapon, giving them the firepower of only one standard infantry. Alternatively The NC max could roll with AI/AV and be JUST as effective at AI as the TR/VS max that is running double AI. AND could still attack vehicles or snipe at infantry with the falcon.

A good starting point would be to double the RoF of the TR and VS maxes and to try that for a month or two before considering any further changes. Either that or cut the dps of NC maxes by half, either lower the pellet damage or reduce the number of pellets, slowing down the rate of fire won't do anything to help the one man instagib that is the biggest problem with them right now.

There is so many reasons for that... for starters the NC max and its "insane OPness" every kid comes on the forums to complain is only massively used in bio lab fights which represent 3 maps per continent mind you, it does not affect the game nearly as much as an OP tank or aircraft that can be used anywhere and affect the whole playing field, you should be able to see that on your own.NC maxes are insanely powerful in very close ranges 10-20m at the most and lose efficiency after that range (contrary to common belief even inside the biolabs there are plenty of areas that will go beyond that range, of course most NC maxes try to stay away of these areas and stick to some well know locations).Maxes are easily countered anyway, you can use c4/rockets/tank mines or 2-4 guys with small firearms shooting at it will bring it down.

Now this is the most important part and i hope all the people crying about it understand this: i dont mind taking away the NC maxes shotguns and giving it another weapon as many seem to ask, but complaining that the max is OP also means saying that all shotguns are OP because the only difference the max has compared to some infantry with a shotgun is that it is a slower target but can take more hits. Either all shotguns are not working as intended or all are, you cant have it both ways.

or how about give the other maxes better cqc options? And give our damn guns better CQC options!

I think the devs are aware of the NC completely lacking in every other area so they let them keep their MAX.

It's the same for TR/VS MAXes they're just less effective at camping. Granted, there are times when having more range and a larger magazine has its advantages, but most of the time gibbing people in CQC is better. MAXes are big slow targets that are dangerous to infantry, so if you're out in the open you attract fire. And none of the MAXes is very accurate at long ranges so usually you don't do much good out in the open anyway.

Personally, I think the RoF and damage of hacksaws could be cut by about 30%. They'd actually still gib infantry with good hits/head shots, but misses would be more punishing and give infantry some chance to escape and retaliate.

A tighter spread, well, maybe. Too tight and it'll still end up superior to the inaccurate VS/TR weapons that don't compete in CQC with hacksaws, so if it was competitive at too much longer of a range it'd still be imbalanced.

The Magrider is fine, nothing to see here
The Prowler is fine, nothing to see here
Flinch is fine, nothing to see here.
The Reaver is fine, nothing to see here.

But a shortrange MAX mainly useable in the biolabs is enough to make the whole game come crashing down?
You could swap the TR and NC MAX tommorow, and the impact on the game would be insignificant except from the amount of whines on the forum.

Also, the last thing this game needs it to be balanced for counterstrike matches.

Concussion grenades seems to be the only reliable infantry counter to a NC MAX.
Maybe flash/smoke and C4, but they can still blind fire and still survive due to their absurd TTK.

I'm relatively certain that one of a few things is going on.

1. The devs have done some datamining on the backend and found that the numbers show the ScatMax isn't as imbalanced as forumside says.
2. The devs see the ScatMax is imbalanced, but have backed themselves into a corner with its design, and can't make any real adjustments without a complete overhaul of all of the MAXes, which everyone in the world will complain about and scream for refunds.
3. The devs see the ScatMax is imbalanced, and are internally testing options to balance it.
4. Horse**** tinfoil hat something something about Higby wanting his favorite faction overpowered rabble rabble conspiracy theory.

Not really sure. Options 2 and 3 seem more likely to me, but from my point of view, 1 is also a real possibility. I do know that most of the MAXes I've killed are guys that I've caught outside, and I tend to die quickly (as in, usually before I can get a shot off) when rounding a corner and running straight into a TR or VS MAX that's camped out.

Some kind of adjustment is needed, yeah. What specifically to do eludes me (and everyone else, from what I've seen).

1) Stop AI MAX from shredding other MAXes
2) Make AV MAX useful against other MAXes

And of course:
3) Notice that MAX balance has only minor impact on the overall balance of the game.

I won't say anything in regards to your argument on the OP scale of the NC max, but I have to point out that I do believe the above is not true.

Prove me otherwise, but I've been under the impression for a very long time that all ESFs have the same health and armor, and that the rocket pods for the NC Reaver and Mosquito are identical. Someone who knows more may be able to correct me on this.

You don't balance games on generalizations. Give specifics.

there is no misinformation in his post! his spelling and grammar might not have been brilliant. However, his post said that NC max units are op, that's not misinformation, that's fact! Also please don't joke about brain cancer.

Which is why NC MAX won't be nerfed. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Rather than nerf something functioning as it should, the devs (which they've already hinted at) will be buffing VS and TR MAX units. I would imagine they'll remove Unique max AI weapons outright, flamethrowers become our CQC, and then they do or don't give us medium range options. If they did just give all MAX units flamethrowers for CQC and let us keep our faction-unique weapons, then it would be Horrendously imbalanced because TR and VS would still have medium range suppression options while NC is stuck with relatively useless slugs.

Max units are hardly ever used in any situation apart from bio-labs and towers, so please stop trying to protect what you know is op.

I freaking wish they were only useable in biolabs, then I might be able to fight at TI Alloys or Vanu Archives or the Stronghold or pretty much every single tower base without being slaughtered by hordes of hacksaws.

Maybe the solution is to make the NC MAX only spawnable in Bio Labs since NC loves to trivialize them so much.