Should we add items to encourage small squad gameplay?

Its quite simple.

Should we add cheap items designed to be massed and used by small, organized, single squad groups?
Now. You may be thinking, "What do you mean, squad items?"

Its quite simple:
1. These items fill a primary role that not everyone has access too across all classes.

2. They do not fill it perfectly, instead requiring them to be massed to do their job, however, once "critical mass" is reached, they are highly effective at getting things done at low risk.

3. These items are cheap to get.
- 3.a. These items should use gear slots that otherwise are more useful to lone wolfs. This means, by equipping them encourages group play.
-- 3.a. Note. This generally would make it the utility slot.

That is it.

Now, why would we do this?

In general. Small squad game-play is what I believe to be the salve to many of this games issues with small scale operations, and infantry game-play in general.

In macro-gameplay, Some grouping is needed to function properly, you know, without frustration. This is the game having strategy. Working in large groups is a valid strategy, and you can win battles on their strategic side.

Certain things happen as a defined group grows, They are more capable of making changes on a macro scale. However, their coordination, communication, and/or individual contribution also fails.
Individual, instant death matters less when a medic can save you after killing off major threats.

However, in a small squad, one coordination is easy, and one can communicate in excess. Competition is lower.
However, you rely much more on being able to compensate for weaknesses of the group effectively wile taking as little risk as possible.
-This isn't always possible when items that would be useful for in-class group play may limit weapon choice, and cost hundreds of certifications.

This makes banding together in a small, social team. The one thing that a lot of the new players I speak with (Including myself,) a very high level, high expense thing.

I want to change this.
Banding together in small scale should be encouraged by the mechanics, as this is both a stepping stone in being a part of larger movements, and a fun thing in and of its own when you do get it working.

Now, where are these items most needed:
Fighting lone wolf armor.

When you, and 11 other people are walking around, if less then half of you are heavy assault, you are all screwed, forced to stay indoors when a tank shows up.
If there was a ranged weapon that took twelve shots to kill a tank, and was single shot in the utility slot. No single man would use it.
However, if a squad of twelve people were attacked by tank, the HA's could pull out their missiles, and the other guys could pull out their emergency tools of being behind a step, and that lone tank would die quite quickly.

Being able to band together to defeat solo infantry farmers effectively within a single lifetime.
This would fix so much.

This wouldn't turn the tide of battles: Unless your battles are feeding tanks in front of an ambush squad in intervals equal to their reload speed, however, thats just being dumb.
Remember, a pocket rocket that takes twelve shots only helps when you outnumber the tanks.
Airmines would only work when you make a minefield.

TLDR: Should we add cheap, effective when massed things to encourage, and improve small team play.
Feel free to use this thread to discuss such items, brainstorm, explain why it shouldn't happen, or ask further clarification.
Just never make an assumption regarding skill, stay on topic, and this thread is fine for your own purposes... On topic.

This won't solve the problem. The game is just too far away in its fundamental design from what would make small units' highly coordianted teamwork possible.

I feel that being able to speak would be enough, if more, affordable tools that promoted squad diversity existed, we would see lots of small squads walking around, doing their thing VERY efficiently, given capable leaders.

There just needs to be more incentive to do the small squad thing.
Like, being able to spread out your teams classes, and still be able to take on a tank as long as you work together.

Unlike 48 man teams, a squad of 12 would have time to answer questions like "Should I respawn," They can hide, and wait for armor columns to pass by, which very few large platoons could do, and most importantly, the privates not in charge of commanding the squad could relay information without fear of things like scale.

?


And no, I disagree. I tried hard establishing small units coordination. It does not work - at least not when many people are around. The game is too chaotic.

It depends on the ability of the leader, and the tactics of the team, they cannot zerg rush everything, but they could definitely be a nasty surprise: They are not good at this.
They can sneak, and do objectives needed to start (Or speed up) larger fights BRILLIANTLY.

I am not suggesting that twelve men teams could rush in the front door of the crown and GG everything, but rather, small squads have a place they should fill, and incentivising people forming small squads would be good for the game.

You only need 2 heavys to finish a Tank really fast... its 2 rockets to the back after all... or 2 tank mines... or 2 C4... are you playing with squads of 12 infiltrators or what?

I often run around with 1-5 friends in a very small squad.. and we never had problems with a single tank... a Tank Zerg, yes, thats a problem.. but a single tank? Thats only a Problem if you dont have a single heavy, engi with mines or Light with C4.. and really... only Medics and Infiltrators in a Squad? Even then you can hack terminals and just get 12 Tanks for the squad.. or 6 Sundis with Gunners... i don´t see where there is a problem with lone wolf tanks... i manage them even alone so you should really be able to handle them with 12....

I think a good start would be a system akin to what we saw in Star Wars: Republic Commando (only game that comes to mind.) Press a button on the ground, a marker hits it and the squad is ordered to that spot. Use it on a target, and it identifies the target more precisely than a Dorito and the squad knows to take it out. Use it on an object like a generator, and the team knows to either compromise/protect it, depending on the context. It'd be a like a local, squad only mission system!

Remember, this is about incentivising small squad play.
C4 and HA's can quickly kill a tank, however, not everyone wants to play HA, and C4 is something that takes weeks of play to get for the average person.

Grenade launchers do at least a 1000 explosive damage, damage tanks, and in theory could be used at an 60% efficiency to rockets (Note, not totally certain what other factors are present.) Once again. 600 Certs to get that far.

However, a small, cheap utility item that is able to lay down small amounts of damage per person, as a group while those one or two heavy assaults rocket a tank dead would be invaluable to new players who want to form a squad.

More importantly, Iam. You bring up a good point: It is possible for small squads to do things well with teamwork. People do it.

However, it is still very cert advanced to make it easy to be flexible, and sustainable.

Squad 'Q'ueing.
An amazing idea.

What the hell is "cert advanced" if 2 of 12 ppl need to play a heavy costing NO certs at all? Or ONE of 12 a engi that spend 150 Certs? (or is it 100?)

If you really dont find 2 of 12 to be a heavy and everyone wants to play "da imba snipa" just hack the terminal, change to heavy when a tank shows up.. whats your problem with that? Even in the middle of nowhere in your sundi. Stop, press B, jump out. 2 Engis Rep the Sundi, the other 10 change to heavy. BAM, now you have 10 REAL rocketlaunchers without any cert spent.. and when the tank is dead (takes SECONDS with 10 Launchers...) just change class and get back on the Sundi...

We had a Squad with 6 ppl yesterday... Indar was about beeing locked by TR so we decided to jump in a Galaxy and cap Scared Mesa Skydock back and defend there as long as we can.
Our Squad was 2 MAX, 1 Engi, 1 Medic, 1 Infiltrator, 1 Light.
Just seconds befor we capped it 2 TR Galaxys showed up with 9 and 6 TR Guys in it.
As we spotted them early and had a hacked terminal we took one down with 2 Bursters befor it got to us, the other droped the 8 Guys and we fought em off.
After that we defended about 40 Mins against several Rocket Pod Mossis, some Liberators and a Squad of TR that was getting Sundis to the Jump pad like nothing... it was so much fun... yeah... don´t think you could pull that off without many Certs... but hey, just join a Zerg until you know thae game good enough and earned your certs to pull off such actions...

Oh just @ "Squad Q" that is allready Ingame.. its called Squad Objectives and can be certed under the Squadleader Tab in the cert screen...

I see a different thing in small squads then you, obviously.

I have had groups that have lasted quite some time without a single respawn due to good, and rapid medic coverage. Taking cover to avoid fights that cannot be won, and creating a situation which can lead to a larger battle that is highly advantageous to the zerg when it inevitably comes.
Lots of communication.

However, C4 zergs clash with the feel of squad play, and telling the rest of the squad "Sit back, don't contribute" isn't fair either.
I want my people to have access to something that would allow them to do something other then sit back in a tank ambush situation (Once again. Other then C4 zergs, or forcing them to use a 500 cert weapon with a 100 cert grenade launcher.)

Giving them a pocket, single shot fury is one way I can think of for doing this.
It wouldn't need to be powerful, or expensive.

However, power, or expense are not overpowered in the grand scale of planetside. I feel the ability to quickly mass something small, and insignificant is much more powerful then a one shot shotgun when getting a job done.

A medic can get you back up from a shotgun blast after the lone wolf falls, but nothing stops an intelligent squad from doing the most they can do.

i have been wondering the same that could we get better fights if there would be smaller sguads instead of massive zergs who keep taking bases/hexes and camp spawns without any real fight, i understand that people want to win but its getting boring when you KNOW that defenders (if any) have zero chance to survive and lose base only cos enemy throw insane amount of troops to the target.

I wish to encourage small squads because they are different from the Zerg, or lone wolfing.
When you are in a small group like that, if feels different from the rest of the game. Your individual lives start to matter, and the increased communication makes EVERYTHING you do feel efficient.

However.
It is still a difficult sell.
It won't happen as an overlying and sustainable trend without items to encourage smaller groups, that require stronger communication and synchronization to use effectively, and efficiently, and are easy to put pity points in.

Sigh. I think you're looking at this the wrong way. First off, I play in a small outfit of friends on Matherson. We usually run four-five people, though tonight we had seven.

First I cannot stress this enough, ENGINEER. They are THE most useful class in the game, able to deal with infantry and tanks, as well as synergizing well with burster maxes for anti-air. Our squad primarily rolls ALL engineer, except for the occasional burster/falcon Max, and our one member who plays HA primarily. We usually operate out of a combination of sunderers and squad beacons. We have no problems dealing with tanks/sunderers/air because four of us all have AV Turrets and tank mines. I own both dual falcons and dual bursters and make use of them regularly dealing with enemy armor.

I just don't see the point in using 12 people to kill one tank when 4 can kill an entire armor column with AV Turrets and the right positioning. It's also extremely easy to coordinate a flank and mine when some squad members can act as a diversion while others run behind and mine the tanks. This can work even better with light assaults and C4.

It is also important to not overstep your power level when you're outmatched. If we are being shelled by 5 tanks in a spawn room, we don't try to take out those tanks head on. Instead, our squad leader will spawn at a nearby base and take a flash to a spot that overlooks both the base and the rear of the tanks shelling it. He puts down a spawn beacon, then we drop and syncronize two shots per tank to kill them before they discover us. Very easy to do really.

Small squads need to be willing to be flexible, you make up for being small by being able to grab the right tool for the job at any time. You already have more than enough tools to deal with tanks as infantry, and some of them are easily accessible (HA Rockets, Tank mines, C4). If your members are unwilling to switch classes to face a threat, then they are unsuited for small squad tactics.

Everything you said is already in game, you can set waypoints for your squad and mark items (like capture points and generators) as objectives, and the squad will get xp for capturing/destroying the objective.

They are absurdly good.

Because one method takes a specialized group depending on sunderers, The point i have found with small squad teams has been: Respawning as little as possible, I love it, personally. Its the high point of the game, to me and the few others I have played with. A specialt could be used in a more medic heavy squad, or god forbid, an inf team. Also, It doesn't have to be twelve people, It could also be six people who all reloaded once, four people who did it thrice....... C4 is so zerg like.
Why can't there be weapons focused on survival instead of Zerg, or killzones?
Survival is a valid in the scale of planetside.

This isn't my point. Most infantry groups would like to avoid tanks if possible. Making the earliest cross class weapon for damaging tanks one designed to be massed and fired like a muskets would encourage new players to work together.

I agree with you on rockets, and tank mines. However, re-spawning as a different class in the same area isn't something a new player is capable of when forming a group. A MAJOR point of the idea is to incentivise new players forming small squads, and making them more practical at a lower level.
The weapons wouldn't replace the absurdly effective methods of taking out a tank in high risk.


The idea behind them is simple: Make it easy, and relatively safe to beat a chance tank through outnumbering it using a low cert cost item.
People will then form small groups that hopefully communicate more, and respawn (Thus, back tracking and getting angry,) less.

What do you mean when you say "Zerg like?" Why does that disqualify C4 and tank mines from being used by small squads? Is it because it is a high risk, high reward action that can end up in death with a squadmate's corpse with a tank sitting on top of it? If that is your fear then HAs with rockets are the answer. I can understand your desire to be self sufficient with medics, but it comes at a steep cost. Honestly, a well hidden squad beacon can invalidate the need for more than one or maximum two medics. We don't have any medics when we run four people, and we only had one when running with seven. Problem is, medic is a support class designed to be used in large infantry pushes, not as a class that can take on vehicles, though you can always give your medics C4 if you're dead set on it. Medics are a luxury you just can't afford many of when you want a versatile squad. More medics = less versatility. If you want the safest way to deal with tanks as infantry, you either pull AV Max with engi support and flak armor, or flank with HA Rockets / LA C4 from above.

If new players aren't capable of spawning as a different class .... then teach them! In my opinion, Planetside can get stale when you're always playing the same role all the time, so mixing it up and teaching your squad members to be versatile will encourage them to stick around longer, and make them better players. If they refuse to switch ... then they can just get farmed by the tanks, which is their own fault for letting themselves get farmed. I would rather see the continued teaching of coordinated guerrilla tactics versus tanks, instead of some massed direct confrontation tool.

In other posts, I described it as a "Close medium-close range mortar that is virtually a single shot fury."
Basically. It would require you to hide, and time your shots to hit the tank when it closes in for the kill, as tank shells would outrange it.
However, it being a mortar, as opposed to one of the "suicide discus of death" was the main point: You could hit a tank that was driving up to your building with it, and expect to do SOME damage without rushing it.

Trying to do this is what got people I knew to quit.
For the most part, there were three reasons why they quit.
1. They really didn't feel like they could do more then one class effectively, scratch vehicles entirely due to certs.
- Asking someone to do more then one thing at a time without allowing them to first develop a base is simply going to alienate them, there needs to be some method of developing a base quickly without sacrificing room for progress.
2. They felt that working with large groups were just working alone glorified, and working alone pointless suicide.
- Something needs to be built into the game to encourage people to band up into groups that are at least big enough to be fun, but small enough that they don't feel disorganized.
3. They were tired of feeling helpless. More importantly, this was enhanced by one.
- A lot of them referenced the lack of "flashy thingy" or hitreqs on armored targets.
-- Simply having a weapon that could be obtained easily, and would ping hitreqs on armor would likely have at least made them reconsider.
--- Having said weapon be effective, and advisable in certain early teirs of play given tactics simply trains the next generation of players to work together. Having it be not VERY effective, and quite honestly, outclassed leaves room for player advancement, filling all three demands well.
--- (Also, having something that is weaponlike, that you can buy like low level abilities.... Would at least give new players the satisfaction of buying a weapon.)

Regardless, there needs to be some phase between "Fresh on the ground recruit" to "Light assault bomber," or "BF1942 V2 engineer," or a mean heavy assault in terms of vehicle relationship. Something that isn't "Run away," "Let them kill you," or "Abandon the battle/game."

As long as they feel helpless, someone of my caliber of stubbornness cannot keep them in the game.

#1. You should have shown them otherwise. They are wrong. The rocket launcher is free to anyone, and gives hit markers. I'll tell you what. I have NO certs into my HA. Because I primarily play engie/medic/max. Does that mean I'm a worthless HA? No. I'm still perfectly capable of destroying tanks with the starter launcher when I feel the situation is better served by it than mines or falcons. Why couldn't you show those new players how to flank and destroy a tank as an HA? There's no need for them to feel powerless when the game provides them with all the tools they need on a fresh character to destroy a tank when combined with brain power. Why is it that all of your friends felt powerless when they were given free rocket launchers?

I will say that #2 is an issue with small groups. Because there's only so much you can spare into a particular role, you sometimes can come up against a limiting factor based on the power of your group. You circumvent this by allowing your group to switch gears to solve problems. The only way to avoid this problem is to get more manpower, enough that everyone can play the role they want 100% of the time.

In essence, small squad gameplay is all about being flexible. If your squadmates can't be flexible, then your squad should be rolling with the zerg, or a larger outfit. Honestly, a full squad of 12 shouldn't have any problems with a tank or two if you have a balanced class composition. Say 2 medics, 2 max units, 2 engineers, 2 LAs with C4 or 2 HAs, and 4 HAs.

Class based gameplay encourages teamplay by intorducing counters and allowing teammates to make up for what you cannot do. The presence of tanks requires some of your squad to play HA, along with the engies and medics to support them.

Afterthought: After writing this I remembered that there is such a thing as anti-vehicle grenades already present in the game. I wouldn't see too much of an issue of making them available to all classes, since you would have to trade frags for them, and HAs would be universally preferred over them. It would allow them to pitch in more when the HAs engage armor, but they would have to trade some infantry killing power for it.

I snicker at how those grenades are literally given to the one class who has no reason to use them.

I feel that one of the things the game should get to doing is giving more options to fill that utility slot regardless: As having decent medic support would allow you to drop syringes, meaning that you can equip something else.

Of course.... Six squad-mates with C4 is just getting ridiculous, and a grenade launcher is probably one of the first things the devs WOULD add, from my knowledge of them. All grenade launchers have been able to damage armor, and only the marauder falls below my performance requirements in the above post as well as I am aware.

(Someone should organize an event where we test the number of grenade launcher shots it takes to kill a tank.)

So, I probably will just end up sitting after I stop evangelizing my mortar idea for weeks on end, and go "Hah, I knew it," when a much stronger ranged weapon becomes available for the slot.

What would encourage squad play? Hmmm, as XP and certs are life and death in this game... well, put like, -50% xp penalty if squad members wander too far away from their squad leader, problem solved.