When can we see the prowler against infantry statistics?

This is not true since the latest patch. Yesterday tanks and aircraft were able to hit our squad with annihilators farther out than we could lock on. With the increased projective velocity and splash range, prowlers are even more deadly. Render distance more than leveled the vehicle playing field vs lock-on. It should be equal distance.

Infantry should require multiples to take out tanks. But tank vs infantry should be similar for all 3 factions, not 1 being 10x better yet still 1-1 against other faction tanks. (which prowler right now is actually > 1-1 vs VS/NC tanks).

It's just dramatic to see that it's always the same small number of elite haters that are complaining.

That isn't the math I'm using, thanks for yet another not-so-thinly-veiled insult.

The math I'm using is 2 shots with 1k splash damage in 0.5 seconds meaning dead infantry with no chance to retaliate or find cover which no other MBT is capable of doing with HEAT rounds.

The direct damage portions of the shots are less powerful, the splash still retains it's potency. Maybe learn how the mechanics of the game work before wading into a deep discussion about said mechanics.

Really amusing after throwing out that '2 is better than 1' line over and over. For crying out loud, you've refused to include the time factor in any of your analyses whatsoever, which is basically the whole crux of my argument.

No, the balance level for infantry vs. tank should not be 'infantry dies in 0.5 seconds even though the MBT pilot missed both of his shots.' You would also still get OHK for direct hits, which you would still be able to achieve more frequently than any other tank. Your trying to perpetuate a scenario in which screwing up royally in one tank still results in success, but not so for the other two. Actually worse, you want a situation in which screwing up royally in any tank still results in success, apparently.

All of those variables are equally available/present in all factions, so the variable that is different is...the MBTs. Do some MBTs (when using HEAT) kill more infantry than others? You can even compensate...per capita, per pull, per hour, etc, etc.

You've utterly failed to comprehend the complexity of the argument, that doesn't make it kindergarten math. The damage and time components of the math have been repeated multiple times and you continue reducing it to "2 is more than 1 gais!" which at this point is your entire rebuttal, sadly it is nothing but a Straw Man and intellectually dishonest.

You don't see it because you either don't want to or aren't capable. Don't care which, either option makes your input useless.

None of the tanks is op although I agree that Prowler HEAT could stand a slight damage nerf against infantry. Imo the main problem is the terrain on Indar which promotes lopsided tank spam at certain areas and at the same time literally denies access for enemy armour to act as a natural counter. These are areas which unfortunately turn out to be hotspots on the map on a regular basis in the current state of the game.

When you look at the usual hotspots on indar, the terrain around it and around the SW Warpgate as well as the arrangement of MBT spawns at or near those hotspots, it becomes blatantly obvious that it is not the pretended opness of one tank but much rather the southwest area of Indar which is hands down the best to suppress the enemy with tons of tank shells to play the only meta game we currently have: farming kills. Three major reasons:

1: You've got the highground at nearly all of the highly embattled hotspots (from Hvar, Data Lab, Allatum, Allois, Crown, Zurvan, Xroads to Regent Rock)
2: You've got tank spawns directly at or very close to those hotspots. In addition all of those areas are easily accessible from the SW Warpgate.
3: The enemy gets funneled into tight canyons and bridges if they attempt to make a push, which makes them easy cannon fodder.

Once battles actually shift to other parts of the map though, where the terrain gets more consistent, we usually have very balanced armour vs. infantry as well as armour vs. armour and armour vs. air engagements already.

However, assuming the worst case scenario occures, and we're still stuck on Indar and the flow of battles did not change after the server merges, I would wager that after the next Warpgate rotation the Vanguard would have a turn to be claimed as op.

I have yet to see battles with the rebalanced MBTs on the other continents. And I even have yet to see post-GU2 battles involving the rebalanced MBTs on certain areas of Indar, simply because we're always playing at the same freaking parts of the map, which - from a TR perspective - highly favour Prowler spam and make it relatively easy to destroy enemy armour and infantry due to terrain. Hence I fail to understand how we can make serious MBT balancing requests in the current state of the game.

Right now the Prowler is by far the best tank. It's the best according to the MBT vs MBT graphs that Higby showed us.

It's by far the best against infantry since it has two shots and a huge splash damage, and you only need one shot to kill an infantry. And the fact is that its armor is pretty much the same as the Vanguards/Magriders. It's pretty obvious that its overpowered against infantry I don't understand why anyone would argue that.

We seem to be forgetting that the Prowler also has the lowest life time of the 3 MBTs.

I don't really think the HE rounds need a nerf, they are the same now as they were before the updates apart from the velocity increase.

HEAT on the other hand could use a 10-15% reduce in damage against both tanks and infantry, I mainly use AP and they seem fine the way they are right now.

Looking at the TvT stats we can assume that the Prowler and Mag are currently pretty balanced, Higby did admit that the mobility nerf of the Mag was a bug that is being investigated so I'm guessing the Mag will probably be fine once they fix it, not sure if it's been fixed already but I'm guessing it hasn't.

Judging simply by the stats they need to give the Vanguard some love now, not sure exactly what needs to be done but a slight increase in reload speed and possibly some buff to the shield might be appropriate.

Problem with things like shield buffs is not everyone will have them, often choosing smokes etc. A tiny reload speed buff might be all that is required though. Balance seems quite good now.

The prowler's HE damage is half that of magrider/vanguard. Yes there are two shots which is more effective/forgiving against soft infantry targets that don't have flak but this also means you have to hit an enemy tank twice as much while driving/bobbing around with recoil if you're not shooting face against face.

The main issue with the Magrider is the VS got so derp in technology they forgot the basic fundamentals of what makes a tank a tank and never gave their turret even a 30 degree side rotation capability. Also the buggy issue that's presently in game effecting their movement getting hung up sometimes.

If Magriders had a slight degree of rotation to their front turret I don't think there would be as much complaining but then again the Magrider isn't made/meant to go against infantry as much as the other two tanks to begin with.

*facepalm* I give up. The only way you'll be appeased is if SOE gives you the statistics you WANT to see, obviously. The statistics that don't exist.

The statistics that show that the Prowler kills slightly more infantry due to being able to shoot twice rather than once probably exists there, but it is a non issue that you're demanding a 50% nerf to its combat ability while ignoring the plethora of other factors that attribute to what makes a MBT strong at infantry combat.

There is just no pleasing the VS desperate for something to shield the pain from having their factually, verifiable and utterly overpowered tank nerfed down to the level of the other MBT's.

No one is disputing the Prowler is the top of the list now. Let's buff the other two to match, instead of looking for ways to nerf just the Prowler because they want to see another faction cry as loudly as they have been.

The VS asked for no nerf but buffs to the other two. Clearly that is not how SOE operates.

I don't know guys the Prowler has a smaller Barrel than the other MBT's but can fire two rounds which are roughly the same size of an Vanguard and Maggy and the DPS of the Prowler is non-existant at the moment it is high DPS high DMG(isn't the Vanguard a DMG specific Tank while the Maggy is a "sacrife agility for damage"?) i still remember dying frome one shots of an HE round of an Prowler way too many times.And because of that 90% i am fighting TR i have Prowler fest and can't do anything since i am completely surrounded

I've heard some people edit their settings file to max out render distance. Perhaps this is what you experienced. There's also the chance that they had spotters, followed rocket trails, an engineer turret was nearby giving your position away, or they were hacking.

When can we see the breakdown of rocket/c4/mine/actual other tank damage in tank vs tank? As for vs infantry, magriders aren't built to kill infantry and frankly they're derpy designed so try asking for a small side to side rotation on the main gun like 30 degrees or so, vanguards seem to do just fine against infantry I haven't used them much but they seemed to damage better than a single prowler round but were less forgiving because there was only one round. The thing is a direct/close proximity hit from either will kill an infantry effectively.

HOWEVER the real thing is you need to stop viewing it as tank vs infantry only, it's a matter of infantry vs infantry vs tanks vs tanks vs infantry with aircraft shooting at all of them and so on. On another note, tanks need something on infantry after all I can't count how many times I come across groups of HA. Consider things outside of the zerg/multi platoon scenario as well. There's more to it than just that a tank shell can pwn an infantry if they aim well. On one last note usually when there's a mass of tanks they're so focused on the front and shooting silly infantry repeatedly spawning at an already taken base that they don't notice the tank mines and c4 coming from behind or the tank column of the force they're so bent on camping forming up to blow them away from behind.

Issues I see with tanks atm:

Vanguard doesn't do enough damage to make up for size and movement speed. I've used the Anti-Armor rounds, and it's barely better.

Vanu - since the nerf, you must be very very far way in order to strafe dodge tank fire, if you're any closer you have to kamakazi rush enemy tanks to flank them- it's a 50/50 move that usually has u swarmed with HA.

Prowler - With a dbbl shot where each round can kill swaths of enemies before needed a reload you're getting double the killing power. HEAT rounds are the obvious choice as you don't lose significant damage against tanks.


I don't understand why the different ammo types exist if they don't specialize the tank. Anti-Armor rounds don't deal enough damage against tanks to warrant losing essentially all your splash. HEAT rounds don't lose enough damage against armor to warrant not using it. Vanilla rounds are nearly as effective against infantry already, so why did they add HEAT?

If we make the ammo more specialized we'd see a big difference in how battles are fought. Farmy prowlers would have to use regular rounds to stay well-rounded or else an anti-armor counter assault could wipe them out.

There is no reason not to use HEAT. A ridiculous choice by the developers that clearly favors the high volume of the prowler which is SIGNIFICANTLY improved by deploying the vehicle. (Increased reload, increased projectile velocity, what's not to love? You pack an engineer or two behind you, there's no stopping you).

What we see in the Magrider and Vanguard are defensive abilities that give the tank a chance to escape. The shield doesn't last enough to camp out a base, or make a significant forward assault, both the magburner and shield are shortlived and really just give the vehicle an ace in the hole, you can't ace in the hole your way through a tank war whereas you CAN make intelligent defensive and offensive encampments with a deployed prowler than can heavily punish the enemy whereever they're entrenched.

Again the developers are making poor choices with bad utilization of their QA team. This stuff should be tested, and the QA team seems to demonstrate that they don't play this game and are instead worked to the bone testing god-knows-what.

There is an obvious line that can be traced to the magrider nerf:
Prowlers destroy infantry very very efficiently,
Magriders/Vanguards are deployed to deal with prowlers
Prowlers that are mostly focused and overextended on vaporizing infantry are eliminated
Statistic on Magrider/Vanguard versus Prowler goes up. Magrider and Vanguard suffer for this, Prowler is unchanged.
Magriders and Vangaurds get swamped with mosquitos (the new beta reaver) and are wiped out, causing statistics to transcend apples versus apples type of comparisons.

Of course the plague of nerfing circles about the NC and VS, but the high casualties of the infantry remain. Are we to see a solution with faction specific rocket launchers? Right now aircraft and armor continue to be the last word in battles except for biolabs. Sometimes this gets so bad that you are lucky to see anyone running outside vehicles because they're all out and about with their infrared optics probing and scanning for a blip that they can light up for easy points (now its a roulette that one of those blips is worth a chunk of points).

Unless I'm mistaken all of the arguments are slowly pointing at the just the TR. Perhaps we may see some balancing in the TR come about as they have gone to the trouble of weakening the VS's tanks.

They constantly say that the TR are in a good place and they like them, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN!? Servers are plagued with overpopulated TR factions which logically suggests they are the superior faction. The NC used to be the top dog in this respect back in beta when reavers blotted the skies. VS used to have something of a faction when the magriders coated the ground in any kind of VS push. With the magrider heavily crippled from what it once was, we are lucky to ever see VS in 2nd position for population.

We need a better picture of what the development team is doing to address imbalances, and we need to see how nerfing underpopulated factions is justifiable, what the reasoning behind ninja nerfing is (as imo it paints the community as dummies that won't notice- we do).

The developer/community game building experience is flawed in this respect and I hope that more balancing conversations can occur between the development and community so we'll see less ninja nerfing, and more structured changes because right now the development seem still seems to be swinging a bat around while wearing a mask-- and that's what it looks like to the community, we have no freaking clue what you guys are directly doing about balance besides "working on it".

Common sense is not common.

The same day you get to see the infantry vs MBT statistics and realise, for all that killing, Prowlers get destroyed by infantry more than any other MBT. A factor you complainers all too willingly overlook.

But these MBT discussions are getting old, really old. I think the best solution for PS2 is to reduce vehicle spam by having vehicle specialisations, for example a player may only drive 2 types of vehicle (plus the Flash as a one-off, otherwise traveling becomes an issue). This would reduce the MBT spam and limit it to people who wish to be dedicated MBT drivers. Changing vehicle "driver licenses" could have a ~7 day cooldown.

Except there was such a dramatic difference that they had to both buff the other two tanks (well, they buffed the Prowler, not so much the Vanguard) AND Nerf the VS tank to make it seem remotely even, sorry.

Now, seeing as there is such a small difference between the tanks, they need to simply buff the Maggy slightly and the Vanguard a bit more. :>

Heat does kill infantry with one direct shot, but thats due it has more direct damage than HE.
HE do fail to one shot peeps with full flak armor. Especially if its a heavy with shield on.

There is no small difference in the infantry killing ability though is there? This is what the thread is about but people keep derailing it in an effort to hide the point.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmUavphHXmIxdFhHUzJfN1VYalRnWS0xMnBUdTJpM1E&gid=12

It apparently seems as if the Vanguard is receiving the least amount of XP per hour post patch in the previous week, approximately 10 kills less per hour worth of XP. Magriders and Prowlers are less than a single assist apart.

Given that we have the post-patch values of approximate vehicle kills being 1.1 to 0.9 to 0.95-ish, we can likely assume that the variances are most likely due to assists and infantry kills, meaning that the Vanguard, as expected, has a wonkier damage output.